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hosted by Dr. Corey Allan

Attraction #568

Join us at the Sexy Marriage Radio Getaway in Indianapolis, June 23-25, 2022 – https://smrnation.com/getaway

On the Regular version of today’s show …

I’m joined today Kimberly Beam Holmes, of It Starts With Attraction, and we dive into the world of attraction. Or as she had framed it … PIES.

Learn more about Kimberly on her sites
https://marriagehelper.com/
https://piesuniversity.com/

On the Xtended version …

Kimberly and I go into a more personal conversation about growing up behind the scenes in the marriage help world, and living as a couple who helps marriages.

Enjoy the show!

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or email us at feedback@sexymarriageradio.com

Speaker 1: You are listening to the regular version of Sexy Marriage Radio, smrnation.com.

Corey Allan: Welcome back to another episode of Sexy Marriage Radio, where spring has sprung here in Texas.

Pam Allan: I love it.

Corey Allan: And it's interesting, Pam, because I had thrown down earlier in the year that in 2022, there will be an audio version of Naked Marriage.

Pam Allan: Yes, yes. You've been trying to record.

Corey Allan: I sat down and tried to record in the last week or so to get some just chapters on the audio, and realized springtime in Texas in the morning is not quiet with the birds and animals, where we live at least. As I'm going back through the recordings, I just hear birds in the background.

Pam Allan: Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirp.

Corey Allan: I don't know if that works for an Audible book. Right?

Pam Allan: Yeah. No, we're going to have to get a different setup for that.

Corey Allan: It works for a podcast because that's kind of a little more flowing it seems in some regards, or at least the way we do the show here at Sexy Marriage Radio.

Pam Allan: Yeah, but not for an audiobook.

Corey Allan: But it's just kind of comical. I might have to come up with another option on where to record this thing.

Pam Allan: Yeah. You will.

Corey Allan: Well, this is Sexy Marriage Radio, where we're recording again, just like we do every single week from the SMR studios, which is AKA our den, have the [inaudible 00:01:17]. But each and every week, we go where the nation wants to go. You let us know by calling us, 214-702-9565. Email us, send us an audio of your voicemail, or record it on your phone and email us, feedback@sexymarriageradio.com because we want your voice to round out the conversations. And incidentally, the great conversations that have been taking place from last week's episode on exploring kink and BDSM, there's been some great dialogue that took place at my.smrnation.com and in the academy.

Pam Allan: I like it.

Corey Allan: And so because of that, we want other people to try it out. And the academy has a lot of-

Pam Allan: Try out the academy, that is.

Corey Allan: Correct. Good clarification. She's on the ball, even right after tax season is done. But what we're doing is we put together, if you go to the smrnation.com/smracademy and join all the way in level of the academy, not just the extended content, when you are checking out before you use a coupon code, tryitout, all lowercase, all together, no spaces, tryitout, and get two months for the price of one to try it out. Then you can cancel at any time you want.

Pam Allan: Oh, nice.

Corey Allan: So it's 50% off the first 60 days. And that way, you can see, get a taste of what's going on in the academy.

Pam Allan: Yeah. What's it all about? Yeah.

Corey Allan: And then you'll also get, next week is our monthly coaching call for April, so you'll be able to join us live for that and to hang out afterwards, so try it out with us. It'll be worth your time. Well, coming up on today's regular free version of Sexy Marriage Radio is a conversation I got to have with Kimberly Beam Holmes. She works with her father, Joe Beam, who I've known of for a long, long time.

Pam Allan: Yeah, yeah. I remember hearing him 25 years ago, almost 30 years ago.

Corey Allan: Right. And so she is into the whole world of attraction. That's where she's kind of landed on. What is it that helps create attraction? And why is it so important, particularly in marriage?

Pam Allan: That's a good topic.

Corey Allan: And it's a really good dialogue and it's a really good framework she's got to just look at the different aspects. And what am I doing in those? Because I think it really does help be specific on, I need to be attractive.

Pam Allan: And I can affect that.

Corey Allan: Yeah. Absolutely. And then on the extended version today, which is deeper, longer, and there are no ads, you can join us at smrnation.com/smracademy. Again, use the code, tryitout, and you get a little bit, 50% off the first two months. We go into a little more of, I call it inside baseball conversation on just: What's it like being raised in the world that she was raised in with her father? Because he was one in the Church of Christ, for sure, was one of the few that would really talk about marriage in sex. And so selfishly, I was wondering. What was your experience like? Because I'm wondering what our kids' experience is going to be like when they look back.

Pam Allan: Sure.

Corey Allan: Years and years from now, what was surprising, what was not? What was the great things she gleaned from it? Just what was that experience like? And then what's it like on the front lines like we do? What are some of the things you see in the field and in the world of Christian-dom that are surprising, disappointing, frustrating, and encouraging? And so this was a fun little just little more personal dialogue that she and I got to have in the extended content.

Pam Allan: Looking forward to it.

Corey Allan: All that's coming up on today's show. I'm honored today to welcome Kimberly Beam Holmes to the show today, where I found your show, It Starts With Attraction. But you've also got other things, Marriage Helper, I mean, you're busy, girl. And plus, wrapping up a PhD in psychology. So you've got a lot going on, so thanks for carving out a little bit of time to-

Kimberly Beam Holmes: Oh, absolutely. I'm excited. I'm excited about it. These are the things I love doing. But I do think I'm a bit too busy in other areas of life, so I'm trying to pare down in some other areas.

Corey Allan: I get you. So Kimberly, where I'm wanting to land, just because we've got a lot of different ways we can go with this, but what it seems like you've found as a real laser focus aspect of your work is this idea of attraction. And it's one of those things that just I personally believe ebbs and flows. But it also doesn't ... If it goes away, it doesn't mean it can't come back. And there's a lot of nuance in it, and I'm curious, I would love to just ... How did you land there as a focus? And what's your take on it? And then I know you've got some strategic ... We can talk about some PIES. I'll tee it up for you. Right?

Kimberly Beam Holmes: Yeah. Tee it up just a bit.

Corey Allan: That's where we're heading. But tell me about your take on the whole world of attraction.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: Sure. Well, so broad question, my take on the whole world of attraction, what's out there, not necessarily in research science, but in pop culture, things like that, is not good. I don't have good views of what is being touted out there for the majority of it because so much of it is focused on these superficial things, weight, looks, height. And some things, you can't even change about a person. I think that is what one of my biggest pet peeves has been about attraction, is so many times we are quick to judge another person about something that, that's just the way they were made. And they can't control it or change it no matter what.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: And so one of the things I love about the area of attraction, and there's so many different facets of it that we could go into, I mean, there's self perceived attraction, which is just the way I feel about my own attractiveness. Or there is others' perceived attraction. Right? So how attractive do others see me? But really when we look at the correlation between the two, or at least a strong causation between the two, we see that people are more likely to find others attractive if those people believe that they are attractive. So there really is a confidence factor that goes into it.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: Now how I got into it was starting with my work at Marriage Helper. So I am the CEO there, and one of the things we teach about is something called the love path, and it's a four step or stage, four stage process of falling in love. And the first step of it is attraction. And I would begin to see over the years as I would work with couples, or as couples would come through the program, that is where people were latching on. They would just find out about this concept, this concept of PIES, which we'll talk about in a bit. But we gave this framework of understanding what true attraction is and how someone can focus on becoming more attractive. And that became its own thing. I mean, people started creating the phrase, I'm working on my PIES. I'm working on becoming the best. It took a life of its own.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: And I said, "How can we go deeper in that by really taking attraction away from just marriage, and focus more on the self, the individual focus, the self help type of focus of people who just want to better themselves?" So that's how I originally got into it.

Corey Allan: Okay. And then that then leads into the more specific work that you're doing, which is the PIES, because you and I align a lot in this idea that we get ... If you get the whole other validation or self validation, that's the terminology I'll use a lot with the differentiation lens. Right? Yes, they both matter, and one can carry more weight than another, but they both still need to exist, and I love your phrase of if I have a self perception of attractiveness, then that's one thing. That's kind of like confidence, Right? But a lot of times, that's bred and comes easier when other people see it. I perceive they perceive me that way too.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: Yeah, yeah. That's true. Not to geek out, maybe we should have this conversation at a later time, but even when you start looking at the different research on self esteem or self worth, which are two different things, but there's specifically the components of self worth that have been pretty heavily researched. A lot of those components have to do with others' support. So one of these tenets, one of those components of self worth is family support, so that it's bringing in the idea of: Are others seeing me? Do I feel validated by someone else? Because that will overall increase my own self worth.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: But then there's other components like competitiveness, interestingly enough, or academic success, God's love, interestingly, in the secular research is one of the things that is seen as having a higher level of self worth. And so there's other things that ... There's a lot that goes into it. I still will argue that all of these things in self esteem and self worth can boil down into four easy things that we call the PIES, that can help people just stay focused on becoming the best they can be, feeling the best about themselves that they can, which in turn will hopefully elicit a more positive response from other people and seeing them in that way as well.

Corey Allan: Perfect. And so then the PIES, it's an acronym. Right?

Kimberly Beam Holmes: It's an acronym.

Corey Allan: Standing for, I'm going to just throw it right back at you.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: Yeah. Physical, intellectual, emotional and spiritual, all different phases or all different areas of attraction. And so some of them are a little bit self ... You can kind of figure out what it is. But physical is not just about how I look, although that is a component of it. It is healthy and attractive for someone to try and look the most attractive that they can for their age and situation in life. So we're not trying to tell a 50 year old woman going through menopause that she needs to look the same way as a 20 year old supermodel.

Corey Allan: Right, right.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: Not healthy, not healthy. But what can you do to look the best and feel the best physically for your age and situation in life? I'm sure you probably have talked about this on your show, especially when it comes to sex, that if you don't feel good, you don't have the energy, you're not sleeping well, especially for women, then you're not going to even have the desire many times, in order to engage in that. Well, it's the same just in regular life. If you don't feel good, then it's going to affect how you show up in your relationships and how you feel about yourself.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: And so physical really is all about those things that, yes, they are some of the things that are out there in pop culture, but it's nutrition, exercise, sleep, making sure that you're getting out having sunlight, all of those different things, managing your stress well. All of that will affect how you physically feel and how you physically look.

Corey Allan: Right. That's that idea that what we've referred to this as this is that confidence in my own skin. Right? Even if there's a lot of it, if I have an element of an embodiment of my wellbeing because that's the interesting thing because you've alluded to how confidence is a component of this. That's what's so interesting about anything you do with research or anything you do when you start to study aspects of human existence, relational dynamics, inner workings of our self. There's so many qualifiers, but each one of them in and of themselves are their own thing. Right? Because you made the comment of self esteem is different than self worth. That's a huge distinction if you get deep down into it. But it also, for the sake of some casual conversation, it can lump together to make the point.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: Right, exactly.

Corey Allan: This is where all the training I've done under Schnarch, he would constantly refer to this in a joking way, I guess the comedic way of cellulite and sexual confidence are positively correlated because typically when we age, that's when more and more research continually shows quality of sexual encounters is increasing because I'm more comfortable with who I am.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: Exactly.

Corey Allan: And all that I am. But I love your emphasis that you're describing, but I still need to make sure it's a priority of: How am I looking out for the betterment of who I am at that moment? How am I continually working on that, the physical realm of me?

Kimberly Beam Holmes: Yes, yes. Absolutely. So it is an important part, but when we're talking about a strong marriage specifically, because that's where a lot of my work is, it is not the most important part of attraction. We'll get to that one. So that's one's the P, that's the physical. The I stands for intellectual, which I've talked about. And this is all about ... So there's two different ways to look at this and I'll explain both. When I'm thinking about myself and becoming the most attractive I can be, then it is most attractive if I'm continuing to grow and learn. And if I have a sense of: What else can I do? What new hobby can I try? That not only increases my own confidence and makes me feel more attractive about myself because I gain knowledge in areas I didn't know before, I realize that I can bring more to the world.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: Maybe I find interest in new things I didn't know I had before. So that is important, but also, there's a part of this which is relational, the relationship part of the attraction, and the intellectual attraction that comes in there is: Is this a person that I enjoy talking to? Is this a person that we share enough in common that we can have meaningful conversations, but also have enough differing interests that it's interesting to talk to them, that I'm learning something from them, that they're pushing me to maybe learn more myself? Because that is a huge part of a relationship, we want to be intellectually stimulated by the person we're coming home to.

Corey Allan: Particularly in long-term relationships because that's where it becomes so boring if I don't have it.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: Yeah.

Corey Allan: Or parallel existence-ing. Right? It's like we do our own thing every night, and there's no overlap. There's no exchange. There's no tension.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: Yes. And couples can begin to really drift apart here. And one of the common ones is that you have a husband and a wife, and the husband has gone to either law school, med school, they've continued on their education for the good of the family. And the wife became the stay at home mom, which is an important job, a meaningful job, but over time, the difference between what they were focused on, what they were learning, became a large gap. Right?

Corey Allan: Right. Right.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: We have the husband, who is deep in how the body works and how the mind works and all this stuff, and the mom, who's trying to figure out how to teach her kids and grow them up. And if you're not consistently coming back and sharing with each other, here's what I did today, here's what I learned today, then over time, this is when you'll begin to see or hear people saying, "I don't even know who I'm married to anymore," because you've stopped talking. You've stopped talking about your daily life, the things that interest you, or importantly, finding things that you can stay interested in together. That is important.

Corey Allan: Right. Actually, Kimberly, I just mentioned this. I don't know if the schooling you're in right now with the PhD program, one of my very first classes, I just mentioned this on the air when I was having a conversation on this subject with my wife, of one of the things that was said, one of the first professors I had said, "Hey, those of you in here that are married, if you've been married for a while, mind your marriage while you're going through the program," because it is one of those, it's so easy to feel like you moved beyond, if you will. It's that idea of I traded up after I became a doctor, or a lawyer, or whatever it could be when I learned that next thing. But now all of a sudden, I see myself as a different level than them, and that's kind of that idea of: How are we both still providing the stimulation for our own journeys and our relational journey?

Kimberly Beam Holmes: Absolutely.

Corey Allan: I think that's important that you're describing. Good. So this episode of Sexy Marriage Radio is sponsored by Better Help, who's been a long-term sponsor with us. And I don't know if you know this, Pam, but people don't always realize the physical symptoms like headaches, teeth grinding, and even digestive issues can be completely related to stress.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: Teeth grinding even, okay, yeah.

Corey Allan: Absolutely. I mean, stress plays out in a lot of different ways. And it can lead us to a lot of things like sleeping too little, sleeping too much, under-eating, overeating. I mean, stress is everywhere. I mean, not in your world, it wasn't the last couple of months.

Pam Allan: Oh, no, never. No.

Corey Allan: No stress at all for you. But it shows up in all kinds of ways, and in the world that we live in, the message seems to be, do more, sleep less, just be busy. It's a mantra.

Pam Allan: It is.

Corey Allan: Right? And so here's what this whole episode was just a reminder to take care of yourself. Do less, and then maybe even try some therapy. So Better Help is a customized online therapy that offers video, phone, and even live chat sessions with a therapist, so that you don't even have to see anybody on camera if you don't want to. It's also much more affordable than in person therapy. We recommend that you give it a try and see if online therapy can help you lower your stress this spring and into summer in 2022.

Corey Allan: Sexy Marriage Radio listeners can get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com/smr. That's B-E-T-T-E-R-H-E-L-P.com/smr. So this is one therapist recommending other therapists because everybody can benefit from having somebody in their corner, so go to betterhelp.com/smr, and listeners get 10% off.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: That's intellectual. The third one is emotional. That's the E of PIES. And emotional attraction is all about: Am I evoking emotions within other people that they enjoy feeling? That could be in ... And that's for every relationship that we have because when I am able to evoke emotions within others that they enjoy feeling, that they want to be around me more, then I become a more attractive person to them. You can think about it this way. I have a friend, a couple of years ago, she was dating this guy. And they started dating in the spring. Summer came around, they started going to the pool together, to the beach together. And all of a sudden, her boyfriend started saying to her, "You know you'd look a whole lot better if you would just lose 15 or 20 pounds." That started making her feel things that she did not enjoy feeling to say the very least.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: And think about ... I mean, in that example, every time I share it, people are like, "I can't." Even me, every time I say it. How could a man be so dumb to say something like that? But the honest truth of it is, especially when we get comfortable in our marriages, we feel secure in the relationship, we begin to say things to our spouse that are just like that. They may not seemingly be that curt and that blunt, but we really start saying things. Maybe you should wear something different, or maybe you should try ... And sometimes it's a helpful response, if it's wanted by the other person, if they're asking for it and they're open to it. The majority of the time, it's really coming across as you need to change in order for me to love you.

Corey Allan: Right. We're not talking about the, "Hey, Kimberly, I'm not sure you're aware, but you've got spinach in your teeth."

Kimberly Beam Holmes: Yeah. Right.

Corey Allan: You might want to take care of that.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: That's helpful. I want to know. Yeah.

Corey Allan: You might want to take care of that. But it is one of those deeper ones of just okay, that's my refining of you need to shape into my preference to keep my focus, or excitement, or interest, or whatever, when that's not necessarily their job.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: Yes, exactly. This one, the emotional attraction, is the one that is the most important for a long-term relationship because we could be married to the most beautiful person in the world, they could have all of the degrees we could ever want, but if when we are around them, we feel like crap because of how they treat us, nothing is going to make us want to stay. We may, because of what the life that we have or different things like that, but inside, we don't want to stay. That is so important to constantly go back and check.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: Then S is the final one, and this stands for spiritual attraction. So this one could have to do with an organized faith or religion because those things definitely form beliefs and values, but it really is all about beliefs and values and living in line with those beliefs and values. So we are typically attracted to people who we see as having the similar beliefs and values as we do, or better beliefs and values than we do because it encourages us to want to be better. So this was one of the first things that attracted me to my husband was in college, I had friends that were friends with him. And they said to me, "Kimberly, Rob is one of the most generous people we know. He is funding people's mission trips to be able to go to Jamaica, just writing the check, doesn't even care."

Kimberly Beam Holmes: And I was like, "Wow. That is so amazing. I wish I was more generous." And so that was one of the things that first attracted me to him because I perceived him as having a better beliefs and values than me. He was encouraging me to be a better person in all of that. And so that, we are un-attracted, on the flip side, when people say that they value one thing.

Corey Allan: But they don't.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: And then they actually completely differently, completely unattractive.

Corey Allan: Yeah. That's one of the bigger steps I give clients and even listeners all the time, is you need to make sure there's congruence with what you say you believe, or you say you want to do, and what you actually do, according to, because we can't hide who we are at home with people that live in close proximity to us, kids, spouse, extended family, whatever it might be, even coworkers. If you're with them for a lot of time, they know who you are because it's what you do.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: Exactly.

Corey Allan: And I even use the same phrase with, I've got teenage kids now, a teenage daughter and a teenage son. And the teenage daughter's dating. And I've told her all along when she first started entering into the world of that, honey, don't believe a thing any other boy says to you. Watch what he does. That tells you who he is. Right? Because we will say all kinds of things as human beings.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: All kinds of things to get what we want.

Corey Allan: But what we do is who we are.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: Exactly.

Corey Allan: And I love that kind of framework because, yes, I think there is that element of spiritual as it comes and relates to a Christian world view or a Godly component, absolutely important. But there's also so much more to that world of spiritual that it's worth looking. Okay, so if somebody looks at these and they start realizing, I'm almost picturing this as almost a pie chart. See what I did there?

Kimberly Beam Holmes: I see what you did.

Corey Allan: Yep. I'm sure that's the first time you've ever heard that joke too I think.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: It actually is the first.

Corey Allan: Are you kidding me? No way.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: Not kidding you.

Corey Allan: Okay.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: But I see what you did.

Corey Allan: So you're kind of looking at then this idea of: Okay, where am I in each of them? And how do I enhance? What do I do with this? How do I strategize and make it actionable?

Kimberly Beam Holmes: Yeah, great question. There actually is an assessment that I have, which I can give your listeners. It's free, so they can just go take it. And each one has 10 questions that they can go through. And then at the end, they tally it up and they're just able to quickly self assess. Kind of where am I? A lot of people, as they're listening to even just us talk about it, are probably already beginning to think, "I really need to spend some time," probably on emotional attraction. That's what 90% of people are going to say. I need to start there.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: But the other great thing about this framework of the PIES is it gives people just an easy thing to kind of go back to and assess and say on a daily basis, "How am I working on my PIES? What did I do physically, intellectually, emotionally, and spiritually?" And it can just become kind of a quick checklist to focus on becoming more attractive.

Corey Allan: And I think it's important to make the distinction here if people haven't picked up on this. This is what you're saying all the way through, but I want to make sure it's clear to everybody in the nation hearing it, that you're talking about: What am I doing to make myself more attractive? Not: What is my spouse doing to make it to where they're not attracted to me?

Kimberly Beam Holmes: Yes. Great distinction. Perfect point.

Corey Allan: We can so easily do that. Well, yeah, honey, if you would just work on your emotional attractiveness and not say the stupid things that hurt my feelings, that'll help me be more attracted to you. Yeah, no, it probably won't.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: Yeah, exactly. People ask that question a lot. They say, "Okay, but I've been working on myself. Now what about my spouse?" And I always respond, "The best thing you can do is model it. The best thing you can do is by showing you're changing, showing what you're doing, being positive about it." And then if they ask, share. Use that as an opportunity. But also, you don't want to ram it down their throats. Well, you need to be ... And even, this is kind of off the point, but I've gotten so obsessed with the research of stories and negative stories, and the negatives stories we tell ourselves about our spouse and how just that can take a marriage into a crisis mode. And so it's so important, I would even encourage people if you're starting to think that way, well, my spouse isn't doing anything in these four areas, try and force yourself to think, "No, what is one thing I can pull that I can be appreciative of that they're doing in each of these areas?"

Corey Allan: Yeah, because it is likely they are doing something.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: Exactly. [crosstalk 00:28:33].

Corey Allan: We're just not seeing it because the human tendency is we look for the things in the manner in which we would do them.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: Yeah.

Corey Allan: Right? And so if I'm the whole, I greet you at the door when you come in, and that's how I show you I love you, and you don't do that in return, well, then you don't do anything to show me you love me.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: Sure.

Corey Allan: And it's like, "Hold on. Slow down a little bit." Because I also think, as we kind of wrap up this segment, Kimberly, I think of this whole thing of the goal to me is I want to present something that's worth choosing, and I want to give it the opportunity where my partner ... I want it to most likely be if they don't choose some aspect of me, it's bad judgment on their part, not good judgment, because if it's good judgment, that's on me, but I didn't offer up something worth having an intellectual conversation with. I didn't offer up something worth hanging with and spending an evening.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: That's good.

Corey Allan: Or going on a deeper journey with. I use it particularly when it comes to the sexual dynamic. If I offer up an opportunity for sex with my wife and she turns it down, I want that to be bad judgment on her part. You missed something that could've been really good, baby. Rather than, that was good judgment, and yeah, you're right. I was not offering something good. I wasn't seeking something that was really life giving and out of goodness. It was more self serving, or insecurity, or something else. Why would anybody in the long run want to be a part of that a lot? So tell people in the nation. How can they find more about you? I'll put the links in the show notes, plus the test that you give to help self assess.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: Yeah. Great. Absolutely. So for that test, the main place they can go is kimberlybeamholmes.com. I'll give you that link, and they can find the assessment there. But if you have any listeners where they are struggling with their marriage, maybe they have the sex, I know a lot of your listeners listen for the sex part of it. But they're saying, "My marriage is on the rocks, and maybe that's why my sex life isn't great." Then that's what Marriage Helper does. And you can find out more about how we serve couples and how we have over 70% success rate at saving marriages by going to marriagehelper.com and seeing all of our resources that we have for you there.

Corey Allan: Perfect. Well, Kimberly, thank you so much for the work and the simplification of some of the things that are a little deeper to try to nail down. I love the approach of this because I think it does give a real tangible path for people to utilize and then steer it into their relationship, which is just going to reap all kinds of benefits, particularly for themselves, but then also for their relationship, so thank you so much for the time thus far.

Kimberly Beam Holmes: Thank you for having me on, Corey. I've loved it.

Corey Allan: Well, it never ceases to amaze, Pam. We get confirmation of this over and over and over that it is a small world on how things overlap and interact. It's like, "Oh, yeah. I knew you."

Pam Allan: Is that the six degrees of Kevin Bacon or something like that?

Corey Allan: Something like that. That man is everywhere. He's related to ... Maybe he's like Noah or something. But I love the fact that doing the show as long as we have, the relationships, the partnerships.

Pam Allan: Definitely.

Corey Allan: The commonalities and the fellowship that's going on, there are a lot of people that are really trying to help marriages. And I love it more and more in the church. Sex is not one of those unspoken, forbidden topics as much as it once was. And hopefully, that trend continues. Well, this has been Sexy Marriage Radio. If we left something undone, let us know, 214-702-9565. We'll see you next time.