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hosted by Dr. Corey Allan

Don’t Be Ilcliterate #494

On the Regular version (and XTD version) of today’s show …

Dr Laurie Mintz joins me again to discuss the route to female orgasms as well as their importance. 

Learn more about Laurie here https://www.drlauriemintz.com/

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Speaker 1: You've turned on Sexy Marriage Radio, where the best sex happens in the marriage bed. Here's your host, Doctor Corey Allan.

Corey Allan: Welcome back to another episode of Sexy Marriage Radio, where each and every week we get the privilege of speaking into what's going on in the minds and the hearts and the lives and the families and the bedrooms of the SMR nation.

Pam Allan: It's like we're guests all over the world in people's houses. It's pretty cool.

Corey Allan: It is. And it also it's interesting because of the confirmation that we can get from people when we're talking about some sort of subject that someone else has emailed in or called in about, and as we're unpacking it or going through our experience or whatever, we'll get some emails that'll come in and that'll say, "Do you got cameras in my house? Do you have a camera in my brain? Because what you're describing is exactly my experience."

Pam Allan: If you only knew.

Corey Allan: Is that what you're doing all day long? I didn't realize that. Well, we need to talk after this episode is over, baby.

Pam Allan: Well, it just says how similar we all really are.

Corey Allan: Totally.

Pam Allan: It's nothing new under the sun. We're all in the battle together.

Corey Allan: There's consistency in the human experience, as far as there's a lot of overlap that if you've got an issue, so does someone else. So what we want to know is what's going on that we can help and where we can go? What kind of questions can we answer for you? And so 214-702-9565 is our voicemail line, feedback, sexymarriageradio.com is our email inbox. Hit us up. Let us know, ask away. If you don't know where to ask the question, we'll answer it. And if I don't know it, Pam does.

Pam Allan: Of course I do.

Corey Allan: So we're ready to go.

Pam Allan: All right.

Corey Allan: So I came across this the other day, Pam, that one of your favorite actors has a new book that just came out in October, this past October-

Pam Allan: Yes.

Corey Allan: ... Matthew McConaughey.

Pam Allan: No, no, no, no. You pronounce it wrong.

Corey Allan: I can't say it the way you say it. I have to go with Matthew McConaughey.

Pam Allan: Matthew McConaughey-hey.

Corey Allan: See if I say that, that just gets weird. So he has a new book out and he's actually kind of detailing a lot of his life and he's sharing a lot of what's going on, has gone on in his life. And there's a great, just some data he just released about how his father died, which was years ago.

Pam Allan: Okay. Interesting.

Corey Allan: So his father, James Donald McConaughey died exactly how he knew he would. This is what Matthew is saying, is I got a call from my mom, "Your dad died." His knees buckled, I couldn't believe it. He was my dad. Nobody or nothing could kill him except for mom, because he'd always told me and my brothers, "Boys, when I go, I'm going to be making love to your mother." And that's exactly what happened.

Pam Allan: No way.

Corey Allan: He had a heart attack right after climax.

Pam Allan: Wow. What a story?

Corey Allan: So there you go.

Pam Allan: What a story? If only we could all predict it that way and go that way.

Corey Allan: Absolutely. It's traumatic for the one that didn't go-

Pam Allan: Totally traumatic.

Corey Allan: ... but euphoric for the one that did.

Pam Allan: Wow. That's interesting. Funny that he would share that with his kids to say, "Here's how I'm going out."

Corey Allan: You know how I'm going to go boys.

Pam Allan: There's some spice in that household and I would want to grow up in a household like that. How fun is that?

Corey Allan: We're coming up on today's regular free version of Sexy Marriage Radio, is a conversation that I had with Doctor Laurie Mintz. Again, she's joining us back on the air. She is the author of Becoming Cliterate and a tired woman's guide to sex and desire.

Pam Allan: Love having her on the show.

Corey Allan: She is fantastic. And in fact it's such a fantastic conversation that we're just making both the regular and the extended content good for everybody today.

Pam Allan: Oh, look at that.

Corey Allan: Because the information in it is so important and valuable because where we go today is somewhat a continuation of the Becoming Cliterate discussion and I'm landing with the title of cliteracy or no one needs to be illcliterate. We can have a lot of fun with this, but it's really kind of trying to drill into what is the woman's experience when it comes to pleasure and reaching orgasm? And just discovering and trying to go against some of the societal norms and cultural taboos. You and I grew up in a world of the Christian fundamental arena where largely, it was unspoken, which that brings a whole lot of shame and weight to it that makes it seem like it's bad.

Pam Allan: Well, and just some ignorance when-

Corey Allan: That too.

Pam Allan: ... when getting into it.

Corey Allan: And so what we're trying to do with our conversation today is just get into what are some of the main avenues that are the best? What are some of the main things that she's seeing that are continually causing problems? Because she's been working with this specific target in mind for years and years and years. And so it's great to have her voice back on board again-

Pam Allan: That's great.

Corey Allan: ... just to help lead the charge because as some of the men and members, both sides, but there's one in particular in the academy that speaks up, it says, "If both parties get a lot out of the sex, they're going to probably want to go back to it." They'll probably want to have a little bit more of it. So sometimes it's just figuring out what am I doing and what are the best ways and what's getting in the way? And so that's where we're going in the regular and the extended.

Pam Allan: Wonderful.

Corey Allan: So in the future, if you want to be a part of the extended content all the time, you'd go to smrnation.com/smracademy, and that's where you get the extended content and no ads, but today you get it all.

Pam Allan: Wonderful.

Corey Allan: All that's coming up on today's show. Well, it is an honor to welcome back a colleague, a guest that's been on before, Doctor Laurie Mintz is joining me again here on the airs with Sexy Marriage Radio, and Laurie, it's so good to see you again. Thanks for coming back.

Laurie Mintz: It's great to be back. Thanks for having me back.

Corey Allan: And for those of you in the SMR Nation that aren't familiar, Doctor Laurie Mintz, I came across your work via the most recent book you had of Becoming Cliterate, because that is such a absolutely fantastic title.

Laurie Mintz: Thank you.

Corey Allan: I think every single adult walking the face of the earth needs to be cliterate. It's just important if you're going to be a sexual being. So I wanted to kind of bring you back though to talk about... 2020 is a weird rollercoaster is probably the easiest way to describe it.

Laurie Mintz: Absolutely.

Corey Allan: And I've even heard it said among some of my family members on just the amount of hurricanes that are coming through, it's almost like the hurricanes are trying to blow 2020 out of here too, just to speed it along. So even the weather wants to move on.

Laurie Mintz: Yes.

Corey Allan: But there's a definite impact to couples from this. And I'm curious, just because of the work that you do, the people that you see, what are you seeing that is maybe the most important thing that we as married people need to remember and address when it comes to just uncertainty of time right now?

Laurie Mintz: Yeah. Such a good question. And I'm very curious what you've been seeing as well. I can tell you that what I've been seeing among my clients is a little different than what I've been reading about in the literature. And what I've been reading about in the literature is like a lot of couples falling apart because of all this togetherness and the anxiety and the stress. And I can talk about the sex in a minute too, but what I've seen among my couples, but it could be because they're already in therapy, right?

Corey Allan: Right.

Laurie Mintz: And working on things and were before this hit, that several of my couples have used it as a real opportunity to get closer, to kind of weather the storm in their little bubble, metaphorical and physical, together. And to really realize like, "This is it, we've got each other and let's make this work." So I've actually seen some of my couples marriages improve. Now, I have to say the stress has been higher and some of the session frequency has improved, but I'm seeing some positives. In terms of sex, what I've read about and there was a great study by Justin Garcia from Kinsey Institute and Justin Lee Miller that showed that people are having less sex, but the sex they're having is more experimental which goes along with the finding, I'm also a consultant for a vibrator company and their sales are out the roof.

Corey Allan: Well, there's not many of the things we can go do, so you might as well do it home a little more. Right?

Laurie Mintz: Right. So I'm seeing people are stressed, people are worried, there's so much going on, but I'm also seeing that some people are learning some lessons from this about their marriage, about their sexuality, that they're going to carry forward in a positive way.

Corey Allan: And I think I would concur with a lot of what I'm seeing since you kind of asked, it's going to be the same because it's a great caveat you're adding that the people that were already working in heading towards, you know what? This is an issue we got to deal with. They are having more stability or an uptick and improvement just because they already kind of started that process, but I have also seen some new couples that have been coming in, some individuals has been more who I've been having come to me, which is a lot of husbands have been finding me via either a group that I do or just individual, because they finally are like, "You know what? This is make or break. I got to start facing this now." And it's not just marital, some of it's just life stuff too.
And it's like, when we clear away all the distractions that we so easily had in our consumeristic go, go, go society and you're faced with just yourself, I think we all have to answer that question of how comfortable am I with my own company. And I think there's aspects of us that I'm not real good in, some areas of my own company that I don't like me. And so it's a question of, do I want to hunker down and address this or do I want to just keep kicking it down the road till inevitably I can't kick it any further?

Laurie Mintz: I've had that same experience too. I've picked up several new clients, individuals and one couple who I think it's kind of like the quarantine and the stress has shown a flashlight on some issues that were, "I don't really want to look at that," and like, "Oh boy, I think I better look at that."

Corey Allan: Yeah, I totally get it. So that steers me towards kind of what you've been known for, it seems like, in the last several years with the work that you're doing, the research that you're a part of, and then just the talks and the different things that you produce and create really do focus on this idea of the orgasm gap specifically as it's tied to the female side of that equation. And so I'm curious, what is it, as far as what you're seeing, if there's any changes because we had you on before, but what is it that you come across that makes the orgasm gap actually what it is? I mean, why is there still a gap?

Laurie Mintz: Well, so for your listeners who didn't hear about the orgasm gap before, just to be real clear, it's the fact that when cis-gender women and men get it on, the men are having way more orgasms than the women are. And there's so many reasons for it. In my estimation, it's all cultural, not biological. Women's orgasms are not difficult or elusive. It's cultural around how we define sex. What we focus on during sex, whose pleasure is most important during sex. That hasn't changed. Just before we were talking, I was reading a study that said women who define sex brought more broadly than penis and vagina intercourse have more orgasms. Well, that makes sense, right? Because they're valuing the things that bring them orgasm.
I do think COVID might, I don't have any data on this, but I feel like it might be helping to close the orgasm gap because what I have seen is that the idea of masturbation has become more mainstream. In fact, the New York City Department of Health, initially, I don't know if you saw this story, but-

Corey Allan: I did. I know where you're going with it.

Laurie Mintz: They put out a statement that said the safest sex is with yourself. So we've got this major health department saying, "Please masturbate rather than have sex with a partner." So it normalized it. And then people are online buying sex toys. And we know that women who use vibrators have easier and more frequent orgasms, and we know that a male's endorsement and acceptance of his partners vibrator use is related to her satisfaction. So I am seeing some little hopeful glimmers that that might be one of the positives of this.

Corey Allan: Absolutely. And I love the fact that, because when we're talking about this whole thing, I mean, what you're referring to also just to bring anybody else in the SMR Nation that did not catch the prior episodes I've had with you is for a majority of women, the most reliable route to achieving orgasm is the clitoris has to be involved, which if you think just normal penal vaginal intercourse, the clitoris is barely, if at all, involved in that, depending on position and if anything else is included. But if it's just standard missionary position, without him angling his body, even just slightly, it is nothing. That's why most women can say, "It's kind of good for him, but it's not much for me."

Laurie Mintz: Or they say, "What's wrong with me? I'm broken."

Corey Allan: Okay. Because I should be getting as much joy out of this as he does, even though it's not-

Laurie Mintz: Or more like, "When I see women in the movies do this, they have more fun. This doesn't get me there. What's wrong with me?"

Corey Allan: Okay. So then we start getting into the deeper questions of what is it? Because you alluded to earlier that a woman's orgasm, biologically speaking, is not any more elusive than what culture would sometimes tend to make it seem like. It's that magical. I hope it's the unicorn will show up tonight kind of mentality, rather than no, it's really not that elusive. So what is it that makes that gap from just a normal everyday wife or woman to where she actually starts to believe, you know what? This is actually not as big of a mystery as maybe I was led to believe. Lo and behold, there's actually myths surrounding my own sex and sexuality say it isn't so. I mean, come on. We're not raised around myths at all. But what is it that makes that such a big gap as well?

Laurie Mintz: I think you're getting at a really important point. First of all, we have terrible sex education in our country. I mean, terrible. It's not science-based, it's not accurate. It's all about the dangers. The clitoris is never mentioned. The fact that sex is pleasurable is never mentioned. It's all about these are these dangerous things. And then people can't just shed that like flip a switch, when they get married and start engaging in sex or whenever they engage in sex. And so there's a lot of shame around it and shame is like, you can't be orgasmic and feeling shamed of sex. And also the movies. You look at the movies and there's little foreplay, little kissing, and then they take their clothes off. He puts his penis in her vagina and she has this wild and instant orgasm. When you think that's what I'm supposed to do and your body doesn't do it, you think what's wrong with me? And then I think something we know in the literature called cognitive dissonance, I think sets in. Which cognitive dissonance is how I explain the whole, if it's good for him, it's good for me, thing.
So cognitive dissonance is, if you can't have something, you play a little unconscious mind game and say, it's not important to me to have that thing. And I think for a lot of women, they just think this isn't happening for me and then they take the leap to, it's not important to me. And my thinking is, no, every encounter does not have to lead to orgasm and that kind of pressure is even worse for sex. But I think once women start experiencing orgasm and partner sex, they're a lot less likely to say it's not important.

Corey Allan: That's completely fair and accurate, but what is it that we... how do you get a message across, I guess, to the woman that has bought into the, "Well, it's just not that important. It's really not aimed at me." I mean, I've been married to my wife, Pam, for 27 years now as the time we're recording this. And I know she is, in a lot of areas of her life, she's a to-do list woman and she's had decades of her life where that's just not on the to-do list. And so there's been elements, and largely, I think from just being in the chair with me, doing the show regularly has really kind of helped us do the mental stretching of, okay, how am I looking at these things? Because I think that's huge, but not everybody gets the benefit of sitting down with you and having you kind of explain some stuff, Laurie, or listening to stuff-

Laurie Mintz: Or you.

Corey Allan: ... that enlightens things all the time. But what is it that helps somebody start to recognize... What's the message to the wife who thinks, "I really don't need to discover my own orgasm or my own pleasure because it's really not for me." How do we break that spirit?

Laurie Mintz: So I would say, you absolutely. If a woman was sitting with me, I would have to have a long conversation. And first I would empower her. It's your sex life. If you choose that, that's what you want, all good. It's what works for you. But then I'd ask questions, like, "Have you ever had an orgasm during partner sex?" And if the answer is, no, I might say, "How might you know how important it is? How can you evaluate how important it is-

Corey Allan: If you've never experienced.

Laurie Mintz: ... if you've never experienced it?"

Corey Allan: Fair question.

Laurie Mintz: And of course it's like a circular thing. Well, it's not that important for me to experience it That's where you land, that's where you land, but I would say, "Look, let's have you experienced this and then let's see if you change your mind about whether you like it or not. It's kind of like raising my kids. They said they don't like broccoli before they even tried it. Let's have a piece of broccoli, maybe dip in some butter and salt-

Corey Allan: Maybe lo and behold.

Laurie Mintz: ... and you might actually like that.

Corey Allan: I love where you're going with this because I would add a little bit of a caveat to it too for her, of if you want to land there, I am not of the belief, especially being a male working with couples in their sex life, I never want to have a wife feel like it's two against one. It's two men trying to convince a woman to have more sex or to care about kind of thing.

Laurie Mintz: Absolutely. Yeah.

Corey Allan: That does not go well any time.

Laurie Mintz: Not good.

Corey Allan: But I do want to at least try to frame the conversation and that idea of, you know what? Ma'am, if you want to land there, absolutely your choice. I don't think anybody should have to talk you into it, but you also need to be honest with your spouse about this is where I want to be, because that may not be what he's interested in or he might be okay with absolutely. This is just about me. I'm fine with that. And then at least it's out in the open rather than that undercurrent of one of you is really kind of holding the other responsible for my demise and frustration, and it just seems that's where we get off the rails rather than-

Laurie Mintz: Absolutely.

Corey Allan: ... be honest about it. If you're like, "You know what, honey, you want to look your husband square in the eye and say, I never want to have orgasm in my entire life and I hope that that's not important to you," then perfect. That's the same kind of thing of being able to say, "I don't ever want to eat broccoli again and you can eat it on your own if you like it."

Laurie Mintz: Right. Eat it. Yeah. And I think where you're going is really important too, is that for most men, and again, it's the woman's saying, I don't want it in this scenario, but for most men that I talk to anyway, sex is way more enjoyable when they have given their partner pleasure, when it's not one sided. A lot of people blame in for the orgasm gap, I don't. I blame culture. But the problem is that I think many men want their partners to orgasm, but they're so misguided by cultural images that they don't then open themselves up to the truth of how she needs to orgasm. So, I mean, I've talked to many guys who are like, "Oh no, I'd never bring a vibrator in the bedroom. That's like a substitute for me." And it's, no, it's actually clitorises respond really, really well to vibration. Most women who use them orgasms. And it takes the pressure off of your penis to perform the impossible.

Corey Allan: I tell husbands that all the time of no penis is going to vibrate or shake or twist or pulsate. That's okay, but they also can't hug a vibrator and cuddle with the vibrator afterwards. It's all really more important of who is that penis attached to because that's who they're in a relationship with.

Laurie Mintz: Exactly.

Corey Allan: That's what matters.

Laurie Mintz: Penises can't vibrate and vibrators can't say, I love you. So why not include both?

Corey Allan: Fair enough. Fair enough. Okay. So if you are talking about just we're trying to bridge this gap and we're trying to help people understand that one of the ways is just kind of owning it myself of look, this matters to me, this is something I want to be more curious about or I want to ask the questions about, or I want to seek some good resources out there because there are a lot of really good ones. I mean, we've done several shows over the years of Sexy Marriage Radio. You have all kinds of work aimed at this. Are there other things that help a wife kind of get over that cultural, ah, I don't know how I feel about it because a lot of the audience in Sexy Marriage Radio, you talk about our country and the Western society has done a horrible job of sex education, well, maybe even worse job at sex education is the church where it's not talked about and anytime we don't hear information, it usually goes straight negative on the way we-

Laurie Mintz: Absolutely.

Corey Allan: ... label something. So how do we get over the idea of the guilt and shame surrounding something that is beautiful and powerful and life-giving even?

Laurie Mintz: I think having these kinds of conversations and I think having sex positive religious leaders, and I sometimes send my clients to... I mean, I can be sex positive, but I'm not a religious leader. So I have several sex, positive religious leaders who can say this is important, this is beautiful. And in fact, some people consider orgasm as a spiritual experience.

Corey Allan: Sure.

Laurie Mintz: So I think just really... Also, I don't know how does your audience feel about masturbation generally?

Corey Allan: It's got to be across the board. We've taken the stance of if this is something that's exploratory and it's taking matters into my own hands, pun intended. It's out in the open, pun intended. That it's not a secretive, I'm depriving my spouse, but it's actually something that's for my own growth and it helps bridge a higher desire, lower desire gap. It's just one of those, I think, as a marriage unfolds, if you don't understand your body, you're missing out on a lot of things. And so one of the best ways to do it is through the self pleasure route.

Laurie Mintz: I'm so glad to hear that, because that's the other thing I would say to this woman, "I would like you to have an orgasm by yourself first. So you know if you like it, you know what it feels like, you know what it takes," because the most essential step to having an orgasm with a partner is getting the same type of stimulation you get by yourself. And that's why telling someone to masturbate is a scientifically supported technique of teaching someone to orgasm. Now, some people say I won't do that. I object. But if they won't object, I say like, "go figure it out on your own. That's the first step, and then you can choose to bring that into your relationship." But so many times women who are already pleasuring themselves, this is mind blowing to me, is they touch themselves one way when alone, they're reliably orgasmic, and then they have a sexual encounter with their husband and they don't get any of that type of stimulation and they expect themselves to orgasm a totally different way. And it just doesn't work that way.

Corey Allan: No. I can understand that, that it would be like, hold on a sec. Because that's also the thing that's so interesting is you think of you can figure out a way to reliably find that by yourself and then there's also the importance of realizing if I have a path like this, incorporating another person in that can be distracting. That's another element of having to kind of grow in the relaxation aspect of it, the confidence of it. You talk a lot about the communication aspect of it, that sometimes I think it's very important that a wife teach a husband what works for her.

Laurie Mintz: 100%.

Corey Allan: That it's not just, "Okay, figure it out, baby."

Laurie Mintz: No. Communication is key, but you can't communicate something you don't know yourself.

Corey Allan: Because otherwise it's just kind of hoping and praying. Let's see if it happens.

Laurie Mintz: Exactly. This is a little side note, but the other thing I would say to that woman, especially if she was part of Sexy Marriage Nation or religious, it brings me back to a dear, dear client I worked with who was extremely religious. Had never had an orgasm, did not know about her clitoris. So I taught her all about that and she said to me, "Oh my, I think God gave me this as a gift. This is God's gift to me. And what a shame it would be for me to waste this. Its the only organ in the human body designed just for pleasure. It is a gift. It is a special, special gift." And she went home and she told her husband all about it and things got much better, I will say.

Corey Allan: I can understand why, because you alluded to this earlier. And I think one of the things that's so important for couples to recognize, and especially for women to recognize is that if you're in the mode of sex is really culturally based and meaning it's just for my husband. Every man, I'm doing a quick roll of decks in my head, I don't think there's an exception to this, has had as an important part of his sexual appetite and his sexual nature, the pressure or the importance of his wife's pleasure is on that spectrum too. That there's that element of, I want to provide pleasure and have my wife really be turned on by this too. It's not just for me because I don't think, I mean, nothing turns on a man more than a really turned on woman.

Laurie Mintz: Bingo.

Corey Allan: And I think that that's such an important thing to know that couples can experience and unlock this power, if you are this energy, if you will, when both parties recognize this is a dynamic at play, it's not just one sided. This is a dynamic on both sides that's going on.

Laurie Mintz: Right. Right. And how beautiful it is to give your partner pleasure to see them experience pleasure. I mean, and I don't mean at the same exact moment, that's a big miss too, right?

Corey Allan: Right.

Laurie Mintz: The simultaneous thing. But yeah, it's like talking to this person about like, well, you like giving him pleasure. Well, I'm guessing he likes giving you pleasure too. Could you embrace that? Could you open yourself to letting him have that same joy of giving pleasure?

Corey Allan: Right. Because that's the whole whenever any member of the couple denies the receiving aspect of it, they're basically taking away and denying the power, the giver experiences.

Laurie Mintz: Exactly. Exactly.

Corey Allan: And I think that's an important framework.

Laurie Mintz: Yeah, I do too. So it'd be a long conversation and at the end I would, honestly, we therapists are supposed to be value free, but that's not accurate always.

Corey Allan: No.

Laurie Mintz: In my values, I would be hoping that she would experiment. She would say, "I'll check this out. I'll see if I like it. I'll see if it makes things better," when I give her the accurate information and knowledge and tools.But like I said, in the end, it's all about your own bodily autonomy. And if that's where she lands, that's where she lands, but let's make an educated landing-

Corey Allan: Correct.

Laurie Mintz: ... and a science-based landing and a relationally based landing, not one based on myths and misunderstandings and silence and shame.

Corey Allan: Agreed. And I think it's also something that's important to, I guess, for any wife out there listening to our conversation, Laurie, I would almost frame it this way. If you are the one that's listening to this and you're thinking, you know what? I think they're talking directly to me. I think Doctor Mintz is... I'm sitting in the chair across from her. Even the courage to bring it up and think through what if? Or go even further to say, you know what? Honey, when you get home with your husband and you're talking and saying, I think I've been missing out on an incredible power source and I want to go on an adventure to see if I can find it."

Laurie Mintz: Love that.

Corey Allan: Tell me what happens and how quickly he can pick his jaw up off the floor. Because I think most men, I'll speak for most men, I think, that I'm on board with that. Absolutely go let... because that's something that's almost the other side of this equation as we're talking, as being the male in this conversation between us, it's been culturally in my favor.

Laurie Mintz: For sure.

Corey Allan: And so I've had a lot more experience of tasting the power and the joy and the anxiety release and the relaxation and the connection that comes in the afterglow that why would I not want that for the other side of the equation? I absolutely do because we've experienced it so much. I want it for them.

Laurie Mintz: That's beautiful. And if the husband could say that and it's about educating him too, that you want her to have it. So really listen to what she says will bring her that rather than the myths, lies, misunderstanding, false images. And sex can be better for the men too, because it's more mutual. It takes the pressure off. Cliteracy helps everybody, as you said in the beginning.

Corey Allan: Absolutely, it does. Everybody needs to be that way. To just recognize the power that's at our hands. I mean, we've got all kinds of puns going on and that's kind of a conversation. So I want to kind of end our conversation and we're going to go a little long with this just because I think it's important. Because if we're talking, we've kind of danced around this, that when you're talking about what are the top tips for a woman to achieve orgasm? Because that's obviously understanding yourself, understanding the way things are wired and work and location. I mean, because even the clitoris itself is hidden. The way your client referred to it as what a beautiful present. It's like, well, yeah, it's got to be unwrapped. It's got to be coaxed out of its hiding for most women. And so there's some power in just understanding all of that, but once you can even understand the biology and the anatomy, what do you do with that? Because there still needs to be a little bit of a roadmap for people.

Laurie Mintz: Yes, yes. Such a good question. So you're saying somebody is like, okay, I'm on board and I now know I have a clitoris, but what do I do with it? How do I get the stimulation that I need during partner sex?

Corey Allan: How do I start testing the waters to see what feels like what, and what will get me to where, and then what will finally achieve the goal?

Laurie Mintz: And are you're talking alone or with partner or both?

Corey Allan: Yes.

Laurie Mintz: Anything. All of the above.

Corey Allan: I think all of them fit because if you are still talking about one of the frameworks that we're discussing in this, Laurie, I think I can speak for you because of what I know of you well enough that an orgasm is the person's responsibility. It's not their partner's responsibility-

Laurie Mintz: 100%.

Corey Allan: ... to bring that to them. They can be-

Laurie Mintz: Nobody gives you one.

Corey Allan: ... they can be an ally and an assistant and a servant and a help, but it's something you have to claim that power to go for it.

Laurie Mintz: 100%. So you read an article I wrote and I should have included a fourth. That's a good little rhyme. I think the top keys are masturbate, communicate, vibrate and lubricate. So let me break it down.

Corey Allan: Let's go.

Laurie Mintz: So we already talked about masturbation. It is very essential often for someone to figure out what they want on their own. Vibrators usually often a woman does not have her first orgasm until she tries one, although she can work with their hands too. They're not some weird, fake thing. We know clitorises respond really well to vibration, and then you figure out what you... and lubricate. It's a myth that if you're excited, you'll be wet. Buy some good quality lube and use it and take your time, lay down, enjoy your time, figure out what you want, and then communicate that to your partner. And breaking that down even further, I really try... 85 to 96% of women cannot orgasm from just penetration and need clitoral stimulation. Some like it alone, some like it coupled with penetration. Change the sexual script, right?

Corey Allan: Absolutely.

Laurie Mintz: We've got this current script foreplay just to get her ready, intercourse, game over. Instead, take turns. She comes first. Oral sex, manual stimulation, vibrator, then his turn. Stimulate him, have intercourse, whatever. Or she comes second. Or if you want to try to come together during the same act, use an intercourse position where you can get your clitoral stimulated, like you were talking about, against your partner's body part, or use a vibrator during intercourse, touch yourself during intercourse. So those are the kind of nitty gritty how-to's.

Corey Allan: And I would add the caveat, you alluded this, but I want to kind of make it important to see that if you're trying to really move into this aspect of our life for the first time, and there's anxiety, there's uncertainty, there may be even a little guilt I'm having to confront based on scripts and myths that I've been taught or just bought for whatever reason. How do I enter into that? To me, what matters is I pamper myself. A nice bath, a nice evening, where it's kind of more of a relaxed, it's not a hurry thing, right? Because you are talking about almost an exploration-

Laurie Mintz: Absolutely.

Corey Allan: ... into this arena. And so how do you almost like treat it like a date. Just date yourself that evening. Make the environment inviting and comfortable and erotic or a luring feeling, calm, comfortable. I think that all of that kind of stuff helps just get away from the distractions that can creep in so that you actually are learning and exploring and figuring things out for your own benefit and your own pleasure.

Laurie Mintz: Yes. The other thing that you reminded me and I love what you said, Corey, and the other thing I would add is mindfulness, like present moment so many times. We were talking about this before we started chatting. There's so much anxiety right now. I can get into that, Ooh. My mind goes down the road crazy. Doesn't matter what I'm doing, but it can do that even during sex. And the antidote to that is being in your body, being in the present moment, the here and now, and to practice that in your daily life, to practice that when you pleasure yourself and then to practice that when you're with your partner. And it doesn't mean your mind won't ever wander-

Corey Allan: Absolutely.

Laurie Mintz: ... we're anxious beings, but we need to learn to go, Ooh, there goes my mind again, walking away, bring it back, bring it back to the body.

Corey Allan: And the first way to do that is just acknowledge it just left.

Laurie Mintz: Exactly. Notice it.

Corey Allan: Just saying, "Wow, hold on. Wait, wait, wait it left. Give me a moment. I'm back. Okay." And then you can just reconnect.

Laurie Mintz: Exactly. And that's something you can communicate about to your partner. You can say, "I'm having trouble focusing. My mind is going crazy." And hopefully your loving partner will say, "What can I do to bring you back?"

Corey Allan: Well, I can guarantee you that's already happening in most every couples encounter anyway, because we all disconnect at some point, we just hope our partner's blind in that moment.

Laurie Mintz: Isn't it better to just be open about it?

Corey Allan: That's how you actually create that deeper, what we all are really longing for, I think.

Laurie Mintz: I do too. Real intimacy, real intimacy.

Corey Allan: Laurie, for anybody that's in the SMR Nation that wants to hear more from you, how do they find you? What's the best way to learn more and read more of your work?

Laurie Mintz: Well, thanks for asking. So the best way to find me is on my website, which is www.drlaurie, L-A-U-R-I-E, mintz, M-I-N-T-Z.com. And on there, there's links to all my social media, Facebook, Twitter, Pinterest, Instagram, and also links to buy my two books, both A Tired Woman's Guide to Passionate Sex and Becoming Cliterate: Why Orgasm Equality Matters-And How To Get It.

Corey Allan: And I can't recommend both of your books enough because they are all well done-

Laurie Mintz: Thank you.

Corey Allan: ... and worth every word that's read in there.

Laurie Mintz: Thank you. That means a lot to me, Corey. Thank you.

Corey Allan: Laurie, thank you so much for the work and for the time today.

Laurie Mintz: Thanks for having me on. I hope that someone out there benefits from this, so-

Corey Allan: I do too. Thanks a lot.

Laurie Mintz: ... Thanks.

Corey Allan: So Laurie knows her stuff.

Pam Allan: Yes, she does. Yes, she does. Thankful for people that do know their stuff.

Corey Allan: Yes, absolutely. And the people that are willing to lead the charge in that arena, to just like, you know what? This might be swimming against the stream. I mean, obviously society has shifted and it's a lot more open and inviting and there's an element of, yes, this is received differently and better than it was a decade ago, two decades ago. But you and I still come across this of we'll talk about something and you can see kind of people start to tense up and "Oh, we can't-

Pam Allan: All the time.

Corey Allan: ... bring that subject up." Yes we can, because we even had a comment when you and I were walking one day about, I think what we need to do is have a little bit of a target line within our shows at times of what we really want to do is try to set Christians free sexually. Because there's so much we can have that's weighing us down, and sometimes it's just this willingness to start to ask the questions of wait, is what I'm doing really wrong? Should I feel that guilty about it? Is there really shame because that's the way the body works? And so I love when Laurie comes on board and we get a chance to just unpack some things and talk explicitly about some things.

Pam Allan: Well, this has been Sexy Marriage Radio. Let us know what you think, where you want us to go. We'd happily help go there too. So wherever you are, whatever you've been doing, thanks for taking some time out of your day to spend it with us. See you next time.

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