On the Regular version of today’s show …
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A husband feels so stuck in a marriage with really lousy sex that’s he’s thinking of leaving because he’s afraid he’ll cheat.
Another husband emails asking for our thoughts on times when there is expected sex and the amount of pressure his wife feels during those times.
On the Xtended version …
Intimacy in marriage part 4. Why listening is so hard when building more intimacy.
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Speaker 1: You are listening to the regular version of Sexy Marriage Radio, smrnation.com.
Speaker 2: You've turned on Sexy Marriage Radio, where the best sex happens in the marriage bed. Here's your host, Dr. Corey Allan.
Corey Allan: Welcome back to another episode of Sexy Marriage Radio, where obviously we've got stuff that's going on off the air, right when we're getting ready to start a show.
Pam Allan: Sure.
Corey Allan: That's just spilling over into this show, but this is Sexy Marriage Radio, where we're hoping that you, as the members of the SMR Nation, can at least laugh at some of the different things that happened in your life too.
Pam Allan: Yes.
Corey Allan: And that happened in married life, and even that happened in sex.
Pam Allan: Right?
Corey Allan: I mean, what a gift and a blessing it is to be able to laugh at ourselves, and the funny things that we can do, and the quirks and the nuances.
Pam Allan: It makes life so much better than just breaking down and crying about them all.
Corey Allan: It absolutely does. Because 2021, it's here and we're rolling into it. There's still a lot going on in the world and a lot of stressors in people's lives in the emails we keep getting. There's a lot of things that are happening.
Pam Allan: Yeah.
Corey Allan: And we want to try to go where you want to go. And so how we do that is, we ask for your help as members of the SMR Nation. We ask for you to ask your questions, give us your ideas or your topics, be specific. Or give us some feedback on some of the things that we do cover, and you can do that at 214-702-9565, or feedback@sexy marriageradio.com, where everything that comes in, we for sure listen to. Gets you to the front of the line if you leave a voicemail. But we read them, answer them directly sometimes. But for Sure try to cover them in some way. Because if you've got a question, you know other people do too.
Pam Allan: Right.
Corey Allan: Because once again, I'm partnering with the Christians who Curse sometimes this week. And the questions that came in that were recovered on Monday, they're just right in there with a lot of the things that we get.
Pam Allan: Right?
Corey Allan: That it's like, okay, it's kind of fun to have people have a voice knowing, yeah, you're not alone. If you've got a question about your life, or marriage, or sex, there's other people that do too.
Pam Allan: Right.
Corey Allan: The other thing we ask of the SMR nation is, if you like what we got going on, or even if you don't, I mean, we're gutsy enough to let that happen. Jump out there and leave a comment, rate and review the show, help us spread the word.
Or if you don't like us you're not helping to spread the word, but that's fine. We're being honest, and every voice matters. So we want, just jump on iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher, however you choose to listen, and just let other people know about it. And then the last thing to the SMR Nation before we segue right into the show, babe, we're hiring.
Pam Allan: We are?
Corey Allan: We are expanding the team, yes we are. We are looking...
Pam Allan: I act surprised about that, like it's the first time I heard it or something.
Corey Allan: I hope that's not the first time you've heard about that, because we've talked about that quite a bit. But we're looking for a community engagement specialist. And there is more information, if you go to smrnation.com/hiring gives you all kinds of information about what we're building as we head into 2021 with the SMR Nation. And so we hope that if you are interested, doesn't matter where you live, you can join the nation by helping us build the nation. So check it out.
Coming up on today's regular, free version of sexy marriage radio is a couple of your questions and our answers, and they're going to be some fun ones today. Some specifically asked for you, Pamela.
Pam Allan: Okay, okay.
Corey Allan: So get your thinking cap on, and your vast reservoir of experience.
Pam Allan: I'm ready for it.
Corey Allan: And they want to know, because you've been a woman your whole life.
Pam Allan: True. Thank you for acknowledging that.
Corey Allan: Yeah, again. Stuff just spills over from prior to the show to into the show.
Pam Allan: Such insight you have.
Corey Allan: It totally is. And now the extended version of Sexy Marriage Radio, which is deeper, longer, and there are no ads. You can subscribe at smrnation.com/smracademy. We are going to maybe wrap up the conversation about intimacy in marriage. This will be part four.
Pam Allan: Just keep diving deeper into it.
Corey Allan: There's a series that we've got going on, and the fun thing about it is, we've been landing on this idea of, how do you create room for your partner and create more intimacy? And we're coming at it from different angles. And this time, another angle we're going to look at this whole [crosstalk 00:04:31]. So all that's coming up on today's show.
So from last week, we did a email from a listener, and it was actually the title for the show of a lazy lover. What happens when you have a lazy lover? And so we addressed her specifically. And so now she replied, she replied that night that the show came out.
Pam Allan: Good.
Corey Allan: So it says, "Corey, I just listened to your reply. And I wanted to let you know that you were right. I was playing the victim, and I have no idea why. I know better than that. I also know that there are times that action speaks so much more, especially to men. So a couple of rounds of me being focused only on my orgasm, not so much on him, or intimacy or anything else, just the down and dirty, and he realized on a much deeper level what had been happening. He missed being with me. And so suffice it to say, sex has been much, much better for the both of us. Thank you for your reply, and I hope you and your wife keep up the great work."
Pam Allan: So sweet.
Corey Allan: So she'd already stumbled on a way to kind of address this before we even did. We just said, it sounded like we aligned with her. Of, that's awesome. Because I love hearing from people in the nation, especially ones that we're talking specifically about because you've emailed or called.
I love it when they respond. And I also love it, this is a call out to everybody else on the nation, if you've got some thoughts about something we're covering, or a perspective, we want to hear it. So email it, or more importantly call it if you would, and we'll get the community talking as we go through this whole thing together.
So another email from the inbox, Pam. It says, "First, I want to say that your podcast is amazing." So thank you.
Pam Allan: Appreciate that.
Corey Allan: "The topics are really good and interesting, and I finally developed the courage to email both of you about some of my marriage concerns. So I've been married to my wife for 14 years. We have four boys and two demanding careers. Everything in our marriage is great except our sex life. We've been dealing with not having sex. As often as I desire when we do have sex, a majority of the time I'm hounding her for it.
"And if we do have sex, 98% of the time it's just me doing things and she's just laying there. It's extremely lousy to say the least. We went to counseling about it so now she will try to start sex, but after that, she just lays there and it's just not good at all. We've spoken about our sex life and she's acknowledged that we need to make improvements. She's even told me that she wants us to increase having sex. However, she just doesn't have the desire to do it with me.
"My wife told me that she has other things on her mind, IE kids and work, and it plays a role with her drive. She's also told me that she gets sexually aroused when she sees attractive men. Yeah, that really sucked when she told me that, and I took it really on the chin. We've been dealing with this subpar sex life for 14 years and it hasn't gotten any better. I honestly don't see a light at the end of the tunnel, and I'm really thinking about a divorce because I'd rather leave than cheat.
"So how do I get her involved in our sex life? How do I get her to find me sexually attractive? I've truly tried everything and there's nothing else I could possibly think of. We've conquered everything except this issue. What's your thoughts?"
Pam Allan: Really, everything's been conquered? Because to me as a woman ... Well, as a woman. For me-
Corey Allan: Speaking as you, as a woman.
Pam Allan: Speaking as me, as a woman, sex is connected to other things. And it's with the connection that I have with you as my spouse beforehand. And so trying to get there in the first place, I've got to have that connection in the first place. And yes, there's that to-do list. I think it's super common to have that. I mean, we talk about this all the time. The to-do list, probably more so on a woman's brain, just gets in the way. It gets in the way of being able to relax, to get your mind in the right place.
Corey Allan: Yeah there's a study, I don't remember the name of it, but it was, I came across it a couple of years back, that described that a man's brain has the capability of, when he gets a chance to just relax, so just when you're thinking about nothing and , you ask your husband, What are you thinking about? Nothing. It's legit, right?
Pam Allan: It's totally nothing, it's blank.
Corey Allan: It can just go, right? It can just disengage. But when a woman has a chance to relax, for a majority of women, their brain actually speeds up. And then all the different, that's the whole spaghetti and waffles, or boxes and ... I don't remember all the analogies I've come across over the years.
Pam Allan: Right, right.
Corey Allan: Of the difference between a man's brain and a woman's brain. That yeah it is a struggle, but there is an interconnectedness like you're describing.
Because that's the thing that jumps out to me too, Pam, is the idea that everything else is great. So then that means there's a tremendous amount of pressure in his mind on the part that's not, that's what's superseding everything. It's skewing the view of everything.
Which again, follows in line with research that describes when the sex life is good, it carries weight of about 15 to 20% of the marriage. But when the sex life is bad, it carries the weight of almost 80% of the struggle.
And so it's because we just can blow it out of proportion in some regards, and get hyper-focused on it in other regards. So I'm always curious, if they were working with me, I would ask the question of, everything else is great? Explain that to me.
Because we have the belief of, how you do life is how you do sex, how you do sex is how you do life. Right? And so there's probably overlaps and fundamental things that are the same, that they're just not wreaking as much collateral damage or consequences because they're not as far apart on it, or it's not as high of priority or pressing, but the dynamic can still be there.
Pam Allan: Right. And I'm wondering if there's other areas that she's either not speaking up about, or she just doesn't really realize it's kind of under the surface that she's not seeing. He's the higher desire on sex.
Corey Allan: Right.
Pam Allan: She's got to be the higher desire and something else.
Corey Allan: True, true.
Pam Allan: What is it?
Corey Allan: True. I want to unpack a couple of things and then kind of land with a main thought for him.
Pam Allan: Okay.
Corey Allan: So her statement of, "She told me that she get sexually aroused when she sees attractive men." Yes, that's a blow to an ego, but it also tells you, you're with a sexual being.
So inquire, what is it? Is it something that's not yours? Is there a taboo-ness to it? Because that can actually play a role in this too. That's the wet paint, do not touch phenomenon that we have as humans. Is there a mannerism, is there a confidence they carry themselves?
Pam Allan: So your question is, what is it she finds attractive, right? Is it the physical being?
Corey Allan: Somewhat to that degree. Because it's not going to be necessarily, I wouldn't necessarily go at this with specifics. Of, was it toned abs and he had really good biceps? Because then you're setting the scenario of, you give me the path and the target to shoot for. Rather than, what are characteristics or aspects that maybe I actually have, and I just have not enhanced them, or that's what drew us together in the first place, and I've let those suckers slide.
Which then all of a sudden becomes an aversion, because we have something to compare it to. I mean, I've been with you a long time. And so I've got a lot of data on you. And the things that changed, if some of those things that have changed, I really liked, I can really hold those against you.
Pam Allan: Right.
Corey Allan: And I could even do it without even letting you know, which is dirty pool.
Pam Allan: Right.
Corey Allan: Right. So in some regards, recognizing that aspect and having the courage to ask those kinds of questions, if she's willing to get in and engage in that dialogue. And then the second one is having the real, brutally honest, upfront conversation with her about where are you right now? As a husband, as a man.
Because this is talking about the power of the third, the power of choice, bringing the whole dynamic into play. We're not advocates of taking an easy way out and leaving, because that's just another choice of struggle. You want this struggle or that struggle? That's really what we get forced with, right?
So having some real, this is where I am, babe, and I just wanted to bring you in on where I am. That could be a gut-wrenching conversation, but it's a tough one and probably is necessary. Because it could be she's reading, he's not happy, he's on the way out, why would I put the effort in? And that's all the undercurrent, but if it comes out in the open, all of a sudden, some things sometimes wake up in us to realize, I don't want to lose this.
And so it's not that, all of a sudden, I need to just be more involved in sex. I need to confront myself in that arena of sex. Right? Because it sounds like she's open to counsel when they went to a counselor. She at least recognized, maybe I need to initiate a little bit more. But his beef is, she's not involved during the moments.
So have some honest conversations about that. But the point I want to land on, because so I think this one matters, this was shared in one of the mastermind groups last year in 2020, and this is to the husband that emailed us in. The path to stay and the path to leave are the same path for him.
Pam Allan: Explain that.
Corey Allan: Okay. A lot of times what we will do, as human beings, we will see the ultimate or the possible what we are perceiving as, this'll be the end of a relationship. And so you already start making plans. And you're like, okay, I'm going to find the next person and I'm going to get in shape, and I'm going to get my hobbies going again, and I'm do all these things to attract whatever it is that I'm looking for, that sometimes is the antithetical opposite of what I'm with.
Because if you're talking about ... Anytime I'm working with anybody that's a serial monogamist, in a lot of ways, with relationship after relationship, you can usually see a pattern of consistency or rebound.
Pam Allan: Gotcha.
Corey Allan: Extreme opposite, or the same characteristic, or both. Then it bounces back and forth.
So I see it as, okay, if you had an honest conversation with your wife about, here's where I am. I don't feel like you're involved in our sex life at all. I feel like it's all on me. The work is mine. You're not an engaged partner, and I don't want to have sex with somebody that just lays there and accommodates me. So, no thank you. And I'm willing to even move along if it comes to it.
And if at that same time you're kind of thinking, well, here's what I would do if I was single, start doing those now. Other than the cheat, and other than some of those kinds of concepts. Stay within your moral constructs. But if you wanted to pick up your hobbies, and what makes you feel alive, and a great way to spend your time, go start doing it. If you wanted to hit the gym so you start looking better, go start doing it. Because that's basically just self-development, and earning your self-respect before you have to make the decision of, what am I going to do with my marriage or not.
Pam Allan: Well, and I would say that those would be attractive things to the spouse your with, right?
Corey Allan: At least you're giving good information about, this is the path I'm on.
Pam Allan: Yeah, I don't want to encourage anyone to walk away if, maybe you think you're not at that point. If you're not being your best self. He's not saying that here.
Corey Allan: No. But I just see this as, sometimes we get lost in our view of our stuck-ness, that we fail to see, I actually still have freedom of choice right now. So why not make better choices, even within the constructs of my current relationship and see what happens. Because, he's been talking about, this has been going on for 14 years. So what do you have to lose? If I give it a season, as in four to six months of get serious about something for yourself. And direct it towards her, direct a sexual nature and the energies towards her, still.
Pam Allan: Yeah.
Corey Allan: Maybe it shifts, maybe it doesn't. But I think that's where, every couple that has followed this path ... I'm going through the Rolodex real quick, because I inaudible every always, that kinds of things. Most couples, let's just be safe, if they follow the path where one of them has felt really stuck and they say, "You know what, I'm just going to start doing some self-respecting things. And I'm going to do it within the constructs of my marriage, and I'm going to honor my commitments and my vows," the reality of should I stay or go really starts to become a no-brainer in time.
Because you know you're with somebody that's totally going to get on board and realize they're wanting to confront some things because they don't want to lose what you got, or they're going to not. That's good data.
Pam Allan: Okay.
Corey Allan: And so I think the main thought to me is, the path to staying in the path to leaving are the same.
Email from a new listener that's been binge-listening recently. And he just recently went on a long, long drive and he listened to about eight hours in one sitting.
Pam Allan: Holy cow!
Corey Allan: Love it. So the question is about expected sex. That always seems to be one of the biggest conflicts in our marriage. I am, as a common for the partner who probably finds and writes us, "I am the higher desire and my wife is the lower desire. Our biggest conflicts tend to center around the times when it's obvious to me that sex should be expected, and it's not for my wife."
So he loved hearing our episode that we did at the around Christmas in 2019, on the best-of which was the birthday sex, oral sex, and shower sex.
Pam Allan: Okay.
Corey Allan: And he loved how Pam commented that, if it was your birthday, she would be planning something sexy since she knows that this is what you want.
"That's a perfect example of what I'm talking about. To me, as the higher desire spouse, it's obvious that we would want to be celebrating big occasions with sex, and that's absolutely not my wife's viewpoint. Anniversaries, birthdays, maybe new year's, snow days where we don't have anywhere to go like with work or anything, coming home after a business trip is exciting because I'm coming back to her. And I'd fantasize about being with her, and be so excited that she'd see me. But that reality is never that.
"So one of the worst nights of our marriage was my parents came to visit for a school play at a kid's birthday. So my mom suggested, why don't you go to a hotel and get a dinner and have some great time together? So we did, we went to dinner and a movie, and then the hotel. My wife just cried and cried and yelled at me at the hotel that she was just a whore I thought I could get sex from with a dinner in a hotel room.
"So I'm interested in what you might think about resolving the gridlock issue associated with expected sex. I've heard some guests talk about scheduled sex, especially in COVID times, and I just cringe. I totally agree with her that it'd be good, and I see the value, but I also fear that that's just one more expected sex fight waiting to happen.
"So one more example, my birthday just this past year was five months ago. COVID's going on, so we can't do anything like we would normally do. A few days before she says to me, "So, you want to drive up into the mountains and get away with the kids for your birthday?" I said, absolutely. So my birthday rolls around. During the day, I try to prep by pulling out some blankets and cushions in the back of the van. We have dinner, open presents, all the normal birthday things.
She then leaves to her sewing area and starts working on some projects. I go in, give her a kiss on the cheek and tell her thanks for a great birthday so far, and she goes back to her project. I leave, go read some websites. She comes out maybe 30 minutes later and says, "Do you still want to go for a drive in the mountains?" And I said, yeah, I'd love to. She hugs me and she starts crying. She cries on my shoulder for a while. Then we sit down and she cries as I hold her for about an hour. Then she says that she's going to bed. That was my birthday.
"I'd be interested in Pam's feelings on the pressure of the lower desire spouse and expected sex situations, and on your feelings on the psychology in my wife's head in those cases. Any ideas on how to diffuse this recurring conflict?"
So there's a lot here.
Pam Allan: Yeah, there is.
Corey Allan: I mean, there's a lot of pain of both sides.
Pam Allan: Yeah.
Corey Allan: And I want to totally honor that.
Pam Allan: Absolutely.
Corey Allan: Because obviously this is a loaded issue for his wife. That she has something ... I mean, here's the first question I've got to lead out. And then I'd love to hear your thoughts, just as the lower-desire expectations.
Pam Allan: Sure.
Corey Allan: Because it does, it wreaks havoc. And it does hit a lower desire different than a higher desire. Because a lot of times, if you're talking about just most higher desires, stress, which usually comes along with expectations, sex is a great path to relieving that. Right? So it becomes the medicine. So of course I'm going to want it.
Pam Allan: For the higher desire, yeah.
Corey Allan: In some cases, absolutely. But the question I would ask both sides of this equation is, what story do you tell yourself about your stance and the way these things unfold?
Pam Allan: Okay.
Corey Allan: Okay? Because some of it can start to ferret out, is there truly this expectation, entitled, it should just be seamless and easy? Or it should happen? Or, I mean, there's a whole variety across the spectrum of how we can label these things. And sometimes I can not even be aware of, I was tied to ... Okay, I could maybe change this a little bit. And I was pressuring, and I was hovering, and I was doing some of these different things that are just magnifying a situation that I already know was rough, and fraught with all kinds of peril, especially for my wife.
And then I would say to the lower desire, if she's listening or any lower desires that are out there, what are the stories you tell yourself about why your higher desire spouse seeks you for this, and how you maybe try to play the game of, oh, I'll set it up.
I mean, this is one of the conversations we got into at a getaway a couple of years back, I remember, of the lower desire spouse I was chatting with during ... In all the room, and I give her all kinds of props for how brave she was to have this conversation in front of the room.
Pam Allan: Right, right.
Corey Allan: Because I asked her straight out, she was confronting the fact that she doesn't initiate enough. And so we kind of got in a quick little banter back and forth. And I'm like, "Okay, so the times you do initiate, give me the parameters of the setting of that."
And so she was like, "What do you mean?"
I said, "Well, give me some specifics."
She says, "Well, I typically do it as we're heading to bed."
And I'm like, "Okay, hold on. Is this when you're going to bed late or going to bed normal time and you've kind of buffered in, there's plenty of time for this to happen?"
And she was, "Oh, I do it, okay." She was starting to get the idea of, she was wanting credit for initiating when she knew there was less likelihood there would have to be follow through, because the timing. He's already tired.
Pam Allan: He's tired. He's like at this point, come on.
Corey Allan: It's this pressure cooker of, I got to get up early. I got to ... And so that's the way we can operate as people. And so a lot of times it's the stories I tell myself of, I'm trying to get credit for this without having to really follow through. Yeah. And so for her, her big ...
Pam Allan: And we do that not just in sex.
Corey Allan: Absolutely.
Pam Allan: We do it in all kinds of arenas.
Corey Allan: Absolutely. I had a session today, and that's all we talked about. Was, I try to say I'm a family man, but are you? What are your behaviors showing? Or are you out with your buddies every night of the week?
So it's just seeing, what are the stories you tell yourself? Because that matters in how you're going to conduct yourself. But I'm curious, what do you hear in this dilemma, in this gridlock?
Pam Allan: Well, my first thought was expectations, right? Our definition in this household of expectations is just playing disappointments. And while I totally get the idea behind, just like he shared, I just assume that for your birthday, I'm going to plan something. I'm assuming we're going to have sex on your birthday, right?
Corey Allan: Right.
Pam Allan: Or an anniversary, or something like that. I get where that assumption is there. But somehow there's got to be that connection with this, why is it that that is not an expectation for her? Right? There's got to be some sort of meaning back there behind it for her. And totally emotional if on his birthday, she's crying for an hour. What is that crying about?
Corey Allan: So what I'm hearing, as you're talking about this, Pam, is the dynamic of sex and their marriage is all about for him.
Pam Allan: Well, that's what it sounds like.
Corey Allan: And that could be, there's got to be some truth in that. That may not be the entirety of the truth. But it sounds like, at least in her mind, she's even thought of this, this isn't for me.
Pam Allan: The way he describes it, it sounds scary on her. I mean, the way the email is read, the wording of it.
Corey Allan: This pressure to perform.
Pam Allan: Pressure to perform. She feels like, going to the hotel, she's the whore, right? Or, and on the birthday in tears because of it. What in the world is behind all of that? There's got to be something behind all of that.
Corey Allan: Right. And just to be clear, that could be something that came from this relationship, or that could be something that's just her. From her upbringing, and these are triggers and some trauma things.
Pam Allan: Well before they ever met.
Corey Allan: That have nothing to do with him. He's just the part alongside this that gets the brunt of it.
Pam Allan: Right. And that seems like it's got to be addressed, and she's got to do that. There's no control he has over that piece of it, as much as he wants it and potentially once that connection with her. At this point, he's got to deal with his expectations and what are becoming his planned disappointments, because that's not how she sees it.
Corey Allan: So the best way to deal, because he asked for our thought on the psychological. And I'm not going to try to get into what could be the psychology going on in her head, other than there could be some trauma, there could be some different things that she's got with this story or experience on this subject. That that's totally impacting her, obviously.
But to me it comes down to how do you, sir, husband, higher desire, confront your expectations? Because that just adds more pressure to something that's already pressure-filled.
Pam Allan: Right.
Corey Allan: So how do you come at it a little more fluidly? A little more able to handle the rejection, a little more flow with it? Because then I see this as, how do you free yourself up to approach this openly, and honestly, and playfully, knowing there's got to be hurt coming with it. But this is the thing we keep saying, because of the dynamic of marriages, there's already hurt in this dynamic.
Pam Allan: Well that's just it, it's hard to be playful when he's feeling so hurt, right?
Corey Allan: I get it, but-
Pam Allan: He wants her to be thinking of him, and what he loves so much.
Corey Allan: I get it. But what I want to try to get across is the idea of, how do you see this as, how am I earning self-respect, and I'm determining who I want to be in this. And so I can come at it fun, playfully, muster up what I need to, because that might be what draws her in and changes the connotation of this. It might not, but I need to make sure I'm living in integrity with me as I'm going through this and earning my own self-respect with the moves I make.
Well, as we wrap up today, Pam, I don't ... Did we cover all of intimacy and the extended content? We got it all solved, now?
Pam Allan: All of it?
Corey Allan: For everybody? Everybody can go forth and be intimate.
Pam Allan: It's all taken care of, yeah.
Corey Allan: I hope we covered it in all the different segments too, because there was some tough ones. We get, in married life situations, we get invited in. And I'm humbled by that, every time that the SMR Nation invites us in. We get invited some really tough, precarious, gut-wrenching situations. But know that you're not alone. Know that it's not the end. Know that there's still choices that can be made, and make them simple. Don't make them big.
What's the next, best, wisest step?
Pam Allan: One step at a time.
Corey Allan: Or if you feel stuck, what's the best, bad step, bad choice you got? Because there's stuff that happens in life, right? We get crappy choices presented to us, so what's the best crappy choice I've got? And then when you can make those, you earn yourself. And then hopefully you earn your marriage.
Well, this has been sexy marriage radio. If we left something undone or you want to add to this conversation, let us know. Feedback@sexymarriageradio.com, or 214-702-9565. We'll see you next time.
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