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We Aren’t Good Kissers #510

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Everyone gets the full show this week …

A voicemail from a wife who wants to connect better with her husband through kissing, but they have trouble doing so.

An email about the connection between higher desire vs lower desire and spontaneous drive vs responsive drive.

Is solo sex harmful to your health? What about sex outside of marriage?

A husband can’t shake his desire to explore a more free lifestyle now that marriage and kids and responsibilities have taken over his life. 

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Speaker 1: You are listening to the regular version of Sexy Marriage Radio, smrnation.com.

Speaker 2: You've turned on Sexy Marriage Radio, where the best sex happens in the marriage bed. Here's your host, Dr. Corey Allan.

Corey Allan: So already in my.smrnation.com are several threads of dialogue going on.

Pam Allan: Yep.

Corey Allan: A couple of which might be shows coming up in the future.

Pam Allan: Yep.

Corey Allan: Just because the content that's being expressed and shared and the questions that are being asked, some people are jumping right in. I love it, but it also is helping create a good thought process I think for where we can go, because you know, Sexy Marriage Radio, we go where the nation wants to go. And the way you can let us know is you can jump in and join our little community we've got forming at my.smrnation.com, or you can also call us, 214-702-9565, leave us a voicemail, ask your question, whatever's on your mind. We will go where you want to go to try to help your marriage be as sexy as it possibly can be. Or as always, been there for almost a decade now, feedback@sexymarriageradio.com. That brings me back to the memory of the first getaway we did. That became the catch phrase that I started saying that at one point and everybody in the audience finished the statement for me.

Pam Allan: Right. Right.

Corey Allan: When I was saying the email address.

Pam Allan: Yeah yeah feedback@sexymarriageradio.com.

Corey Allan: Speaking of the Sexy Marriage Radio getaway-

Pam Allan: It's coming up soon.

Corey Allan: Act now if you want to come join us because it's coming up on June 17th through the 20th here in the Dallas/Fort Worth area. Now is the time to register to save your spot. The early bird rate does go away April 15th, but I'm assuming we will probably fill up before then because at last count, there was just about five spots left. I have not gone back and checked up on that to see if it's even closer to it. But if you're on the fence, thinking maybe we should come or let's go, well reserve your spot because it may be gone by the time you actually decide what you want to do. Love to see you there. It's a great four days. All new content. It's going to be totally worth your time.

Pam Allan: Come join us.

Corey Allan: Coming up on today's regular free version of Sexy Marriage Radio is your questions and our answers. We've got a lot we're going to be covering today. We've got so much so that we're going to actually just create this whole episode is going to be one big giant episode.

Pam Allan: It's like potpourri.

Corey Allan: The potpourri episode where we're just going to give everybody the free and the extended version today because of the amount of content we're going to try to cover and the questions that have been asked. We just want to share it with everybody. But normally, the extended content would have deeper, longer, more conversation that we would continue on and there's no ads and you can subscribe at smrnation.com/smracademy. But this time, just fasten your seat belts and let's get rolling.

Speaker 5: I was listening to a podcast yesterday about a woman having orgasms in her sleep and I just wanted to talk about that because that's happened to me most of my life. I remember it starting as far back as college, but maybe even high school. And my mom, when she gave me the birds and the bees talk years earlier, had told me to expect that because I think she thought that happened to all women because that had happened to her since she had hit puberty. So apparently, maybe it's a little bit genetic. My mom and myself both orgasm in our sleep regularly. I have never masturbated ever. Now, I've been married around 25 years and I still have orgasms in my sleep, on average twice a month. Always have and at the same time I've had a very healthy sex life, but the orgasms come anyway. Anyway, I just see it as a little bonus. I'm like, "Oh nice."
So, just kind of wanted to mention that, and then as far as a question, my husband and I have been married like 25 years. We've had a very lovely sex life. We have never been able to kiss well, even in our dating relationship. Kissing has always been awkward for us with each other, and yet we both had previous boyfriends and girlfriends before we married that we both felt like we kissed great with. So he's kind of said it seems like our chemistry is on the low side with each other, yet we enjoy sex together. But I've always missed the kissing portion and wish that we were good kissers together. Do you have any advice for that? Thank you, bye.

Corey Allan: I just love the expression of, "Oh, it's like a little bonus."

Pam Allan: Like a bonus. It is a bonus. Good for her.

Corey Allan: She's referring to episode 491 where we discussed that idea of what happens, similar to the wet dream, that a woman had emailed in about, "Hey, I haven't heard you talk about this, what could be going on with this?" So, thanks for adding to the conversation and normalizing it a little bit. She also called back a little bit later Pam with some additional information to say that 95% of the time, those orgasms, they're not associated with a sexual dream. It just kind of occurs.

Pam Allan: Oh, is that right?

Corey Allan: It's like a bodily thing that's going on with her that's just... so it's just like, "Hey." It is what it is? Why try to question and figure something out. Sometimes life is just life, right?

Pam Allan: Right. Just view it as a bonus.

Corey Allan: But onto her question of kissing, this is a fascinating question to me because kissing is one of those things that Schnarch has even done some research on it in the past that has found that a lot of the time, kissing goes down as the marriage progresses.

Pam Allan: I could see that.

Corey Allan: And it particularly goes down as it equates to sexual activity to where it's no longer part of the equation as much as it once was for sure. So it is part of the process that it's an aspect of a marriage, it's something that can wain, and a lot of times you could look at it as really good data of, "Okay, what role does this play in our life?" I was actually, as I was listening to her voicemail, I was sitting her wondering what if we looked at kissing like a language, kind of like we do sex as a language. What if I actually took that aspect of this dynamic and looked at that as a language. I think that there could be some enlightening information or data I might glean from that of when do we kiss, what's it really about, what's the meaning attached to it, what's it saying.

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: And maybe that helps give you a little better framework of the landscape of your relationship and how that particular aspect fits into it, because it's likely one of you wants to do this more than the other.

Pam Allan: Yeah.

Corey Allan: So how do you avoid it, how do you pursue it, because all of it is intentional if we think about it. But to her question of it's never really been good between her and her husband.

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: 25 years in.

Pam Allan: Does that come down to kissing styles? Is it attraction?

Corey Allan: Right, there's a lot of aspects to this and I want to add one little component before we start, just kind of a macro statement.

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: I think there's a human tendency that we can have that we will often usually either look at our past as either better than it was or worse than it was.

Pam Allan: Okay, so when she's referring to both of them had boyfriends or girlfriends before that they enjoyed, that aspect-

Corey Allan: Yeah, and that's not to discount that it was better there than it is here. That's probably a true statement, but we can sometimes romanticize... you know, revisionist history of how we remember things because that's the brain's way to make sense of some stuff, especially if it was kind of bad, or unfulfilling, or disappointing.

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: Our brain has a tendency to soften stuff and our brain also has a tendency to exaggerate some things because it's all tied into, "How do I view myself, does that fit in with it," so I can skew the results and slant it and that kind of then can set it to where what I'm looking at now is all the worse or all the better.

Pam Allan: So maybe that is, maybe it's not... what's the point in how you think that plays into this?

Corey Allan: Well, I want to use that as the caveat of how we often will have a tendency as humans, and for sure as couples as we get further into marriage, to look back at the glory years and use that to compare where I am now, and then I'm starting to look at it as, "Okay, it's not going to live up to what it was." Same kind of thing of, "How do we get back to when we were dating and the passion that we had in that?"

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: We have those memories of stuff, but the context is completely different.

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: It's better to get a clearer picture of, "What am I facing now?" I think that's the question we have to ask every stage and season of married life. What am I up against now?

Pam Allan: So now they're up against, maybe I'd like to make kissing a more intimate, maybe a more regular thing.

Corey Allan: Right. Okay, so then let's get into the science of kissing.

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: All right. So then you're talking about first off it's this aspect of what's the physical components that come along with kissing. Bad breath, lips, moisture, dryness, bodily smell, presentation.

Pam Allan: Sure, just being close to one another.

Corey Allan: All of those kind of things play out because sometimes people... There's aspects of somebody that man, they're great, but when you get really close it changes the way you feel and it changes the intimate connection. So addressing those matter.

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: Right? But then you get further into how a kiss unfolds, because then you're starting to look at... and this is what I'm curious about with her. Are they fighting for a lead when it comes to kissing? Is the higher desire kisser trying to lead but the lower desire is trying to... you know. Because everybody-

Pam Allan: Or they're both trying to lead or maybe both trying to follow.

Corey Allan: Yeah, because there could be this component of, "I really want to do this more, now do it more for me honey."

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: Because how often do we do that in married life?

Pam Allan: Yeah.

Corey Allan: So, it's just seeing it as what's the dynamic and how it's at play and how do you unpack that between the two of you of, "I really would like to do this more," and kind of then look at it through the lens of an objective point of view of what's the pattern and how it's unfolded. What makes it stop? What makes it hard to get going? What makes it the length that it lasts?

Pam Allan: So is that something... if they are both trying to lead, is that something where she just comes in and says, "You know what baby, you just sit back and I'm going to kiss you?"

Corey Allan: Sure.

Pam Allan: And she just kind of does what she likes with that.

Corey Allan: Sure.

Pam Allan: And see how that goes. So he's just-

Corey Allan: And that's a great suggestion for everybody in the nation to just play with the polarities of higher desire, lower desire, leader, follower for a little bit. Just like, "Hey let's switch roles for a little bit. You sit back, let me lead this moment of kissing together," and you just follow and that's where we both get the chance to learn how do I play with the different aspects of that dynamic.

Pam Allan: Yep.

Corey Allan: Because I think we all need to be better leaders and we all need to be better followers in marriage with all the different contexts, topics, aspects that play out.

Pam Allan: Sure.

Corey Allan: So, some of this then becomes how do you get back to the lab, kind of like you're describing. Let's test this out. Let's do a little bit of a time where we're going to set aside to just focus on kissing. And usually you want to have an environment that is conducive to that, that helps create a good atmosphere, helps create a place where you can be relaxed and kind of engage into it. Also, one of the things that can be kind of beneficial is hug beforehand. Just kind of be close. Get disconnected from the world that's going on, because I don't know how hectic life is for them, but there's an aspect of steal away for each other with this time.

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: And then start looking at, okay so what do you do while you're kissing. Right, because there's various aspects.

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: Then you're talking about is it just lips, is tongue okay, both? But then you've even got other aspects you could be kissing. You've got earlobes.

Pam Allan: Right, is it just the lips, or is it the neck, is it the-

Corey Allan: You've got collarbone, on south. There's a lot of different things that are aspects of kissing still.

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: That what if you incorporate all of that into this arena to see it as, "Well maybe we're better than we thought. Look at us."

Pam Allan: Maybe so. Maybe so.

Corey Allan: And then she can come back at it as, "Hey bonus."

Pam Allan: Right. Another bonus.

Corey Allan: An email from a binge listener that's been in the queue for a little bit. "I've heard several episodes on higher and lower drive spouses. I'm curious if you think this relates to responsive and spontaneous drives. I am a higher drive wife and also a spontaneous drive spouse. My husband is slightly lower drive but he is a responsive spouse. What do you think, would they usually go together in this way?" And then she adds the little caveat of, "I'm very much enjoying this podcast. We signed up for the state of our union text, which we really enjoy." Fantastic. I love those weekly conversations that I get to have with you particularly, Pam.

Pam Allan: I do too.

Corey Allan: "And we're regularly enjoying the intimately us and just between us apps," which Dan Purcell created and are fantastic resources. "All of this is thanks to you. I really hope that we'll be able to join the getaway this summer and that we'll be able to attend. Any ideas on how to encourage a lower drive spouse to go? Thanks for all you do, and one little quick note, I really like the episodes with you and Pam together the best."

Pam Allan: Aw, thank you.

Corey Allan: I love those too.

Pam Allan: I do too.

Corey Allan: So higher drive, lower drive, responsive, spontaneous. So let's unpack those real quick in case someone is new to the nation.

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: We have a fundamental belief here at SMR that in every relationship there's a higher drive and a lower drive spouse on every topic, and those can be interchanged. Those can shift during the seasons and stages of life. Particularly with Sexy Marriage Radio we talk about it in the context of sex and the desire that's associated with it, but you can also add it to where there's intimacy. If I'm a desire spouse for intimacy, whereas my spouse is lower, and they might be the higher desire for sex, but I'm lower. So just understanding where you are makes a big difference. But then you can get into this idea she's mentioning of responsive versus spontaneous. This is something I first came across with Emily Nagoski. In her book Come As You Are she talked about a lot of times looking at our desires or our drives. There are those that are in the category of spontaneous drive, which my understanding in the science behind it talks about there's more of a biological component to that.

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: Its just a... I'm trying to think... without saying it's just a response because that's a response to desire, but if you think about it, everything-

Pam Allan: It's a biological drive.

Corey Allan: Right. Everything is instigated by something though, but some people have it as just a spontaneous of, "I have a natural interest and horniness and arousal component to my life," which is likely tied to the testosterone levels in your bloodstream and in your body and the hormones that can either be working towards this or against this. So, spontaneous desire and drive, and then there's the responsive drive, which is after something is instigated, after something is initiated, they will respond to that and get things going.

Pam Allan: Right, but they're not going to be the-

Corey Allan: They're not necessarily the one instigating, yes because they're more responsive, although they could from some other trigger out in their life that got them going-

Pam Allan: That they're responding to.

Corey Allan: That they're responding to. The other way I could think of this is through the lens of there's the body driving or the brain driving it.

Pam Allan: Sure. Okay.

Corey Allan: Because sometimes the brain, and this is some of the best advice I've heard for lower desire wives, especially the ones that are responsive, that they need to continually remind themselves that if this is an aspect of what they want in their marriage, the biology behind it may not give it a big jump start right away, but they know once they get going and get their brain in it, their body will come along. Right?

Pam Allan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Right.

Corey Allan: So the other can happen too where the body is going, now get the brain coming along.

Pam Allan: Right, right.

Corey Allan: So could there be a clean correlation between the two? Absolutely there could be because I would tend to think your spontaneous desire and drive would be more the higher drive spouse.

Pam Allan: That's certainly what it sounds like the correlation is, yeah.

Corey Allan: Because all of these are under the continuum of comparison with something else. Because neither one is right or wrong.

Pam Allan: Right, and I mean in the example, if you were in a relationship with someone else, you might be the lower desire as opposed to the higher desire because there's is more than yours or maybe they're more spontaneous than you.

Corey Allan: Right, if things changed in a relationship and you get in a different way, the roles could completely shift, or it can happen where a season or something happens in life and it really sparks some chemical going on in your spouse who was once the lower, now they're the higher.

Pam Allan: Potentially yeah.

Corey Allan: The thing I love about these frameworks is it just helps understand and get a better picture of what's going on and then ask myself the question of, "Okay, what do I do about it and how do I be a better whichever one I am?"

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: Because I think that's where marriage gets really good and sex in marriage can get to the levels of fantastic when I start looking at it as... and you and I have even said this to each other, "I just want to be a better higher desire," or in your case, "I just want to be a better lower desire."

Pam Allan: Yeah, absolutely.

Corey Allan: And just look at it through the lens of, "Okay, this helps me get a picture of who I am in this context. Now, how do I do it well? How do I be better at it?" And whichever one of these helps confirm that and give you a path, go for it.
An email came in from a single man that... this is a little longer so I've paraphrased some of it, but it's still quite a bit of data that we're going to try to get through. So he's asking, "I wonder if you can tell me about evidence from medical science that if we abstain from solo sex without having to be concerned about the negative effects upon our health. Specifically, I think many guys are concerned that without solo sex, it could result in erectile dysfunction and also some concerns for the prostate health. So I'm a single Christian and I still want to marry. From what I've heard, erectile dysfunction can result from injury, age, and using sexually explicit material. So are there any medical studies that conclusively show that refraining from solo sex does not lead to erectile dysfunction. I'm sure many guys think that if I don't use it, I'll lose it, meaning if they don't partake in solo sex, which is usually with porn, to keep their sexual equipment functional, they don't realize that ironically they may soon have porn-induced erectile dysfunction which could take months to recover from.
Christian sexuality expert Clifford Penner states that if a guy can have at least four wet dreams per year there's no need for solo sex because four wet dreams in a year is sufficient to keep the prostate healthy." And then he also adds, "I'm wondering if there are studies focused on any health concerns that refraining from solo sex might lead to. Considering how many Christian books have been written urging us to minimize solo sex in our lives and considering how much shame and regret people often have as the result, I would hope that at least one formal study has taken place somewhere to demonstrate that long-term absence of solo sex does not bring harm into the lives of single and married people." And then he also adds, "Can you recommend any books that expose the health hazards of promiscuity and sex outside of marriage?"
So there's quite a bit. I mean, he's really just asking about-

Pam Allan: About research.

Corey Allan: The research that's out there because again, just like what we have found with almost a decade of doing Sexy Marriage Radio, there's not enough being talked about in this arena.

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: On getting into the nuances and really examining what do people do, what's going on on this subject of sex and masturbation, especially under the Christian arena.

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: So are there some studies that talk about does masturbation and abstaining from it, is there harm that can come from it? What I've found is both sides of research.

Pam Allan: Both sides, some that say it does and some that say it doesn't?

Corey Allan: Correct. Harvard Medical School and Australia, they both have done some research in the past that found that there's no evidence that frequent ejaculations marked an increased risk of prostate cancer. So they just studied younger men and looking at if they had a high frequency rate of ejaculation, and the one thing that's different is all the studies that I went searching on this idea when you're talking about ejaculation and prostate health... that was what I put into the Google search to try to narrow this down. There's no differentiation according to medical science of ejaculation from masturbation or ejaculation from sex.

Pam Allan: Gotcha.

Corey Allan: Ejaculation is ejaculation.

Pam Allan: Right, right.

Corey Allan: So what they found was that high ejaculation frequency was actually linked to a decreased risk when you were younger. So they were saying if it was 4-7 times per month across their lifetime. Men who ejaculated 21 or more times per month enjoyed a 31% lower risk of prostate cancer.

Pam Allan: Okay, okay. And you found there was another one as well that said the opposite?

Corey Allan: Right, so a 2008 study determined that men were more likely to develop prostate cancer if they were very sexually active in their 30s and 20s, although it showed no conclusive evidence that masturbation provided a greater risk than intercourse. So it's just still looking at this... I think what he's asking, because I'm trying to read between the lines with this. I'd be curious what you read or hear in this Pam. He's asking, "Okay, if I'm single and I'm not sexually active and I have some concerns about the whole experience of masturbation, for sure everything that goes around it," because he is true that the pornography and the things that we usually associate with masturbation are the pitfalls that we've talked about in the past. Those are the harmful components.

Pam Allan: Right, but we're not talking about it creating prostate issues.

Corey Allan: Correct.

Pam Allan: We're talking outside of that.

Corey Allan: So he's asking, if I'm not sexually active, how risky is that to prostate health. I think Dr. Penner is right in that the body has a natural functioning to help refresh itself and look out for itself, because there's also so many other factors that play into prostate health beyond just am I ejaculating or not. There's diet, there's exercise, there's all the other components, and I've even come across statements that talked about if a man lived long enough, he's going to get prostate cancer. Most of the time its way past your expiration date, as one of the men in my Mastermind groups refer to his death date.

Pam Allan: My mom would just say don't borrow trouble. Don't worry about something that hasn't happened to you. Take care of yourself.

Corey Allan: Right. So it's something I think that, yes I can understand it, because we're looking for I just want to make good decisions and there's a lot of things out there that people... they're slanted, they have an agenda. They want to talk about the medical science of prostate health, but they don't want to encourage masturbation, or they want to talk about your promiscuity or your past, but they don't want to give credence or condoning it. So any time I'm trying to layer Christianity and spirituality, and that kind of a moral structure over science, they aren't usually good bedfellows.

Pam Allan: Right, right. There's a skewing. There's some sort of analysis you're trying to reach a result at.

Corey Allan: So that's what this last question where he asked sex outside of marriage, is there an issue or studies that are out there about it. What I found is in 2010 in the Journal of Family Psychology, there was actually a study involving 2035 married participants and they asked them, according to the study people who waited until they got married to have sex, so this was premarital sex, not promiscuity, or sex outside of a marriage, what they did was they found that couples that waited until they were married rated their sexual quality 15% higher than people who had premarital sex. They also rated their relationship stability as 20% higher, and they rated their satisfaction within their relationship as 20% higher. So this study found that the couples that waited to have sex until they got married overall reported a happier marriage and a more satisfying marriage.

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: Again, most of the studies that I found on this subject, they're weighted with an agenda and it's pretty clear. They have something else attached to it than just, "Hey, let's give you the data, make an informed choice."

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: What we try to do here at Sexy Marriage Radio is give you the data, we want you to make an informed choice, but we want to also talk about the components within the choice, which is your faith and your moral structure.

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: So then it starts to come back what do you want to do in how you conduct yourself for your character and your integrity as you go forward. Because yes, sex outside of a marriage, especially if you're married, is incredibly destructive because it likely is going to end the current marriage. So it's just making choices to look at it as... I frame it this way Pam and we've said this to each other several times and we've said this on the air several times, what's the step that helps you earn you're own self respect within this context?

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: Because at the end of the day, you cannot escape the relationship you've got with yourself.

Pam Allan: Right, that's the big question. Yep.

Corey Allan: So our final email today, Pam. "My husband and I have been married for nine years and we have two kids with one on the way. We are each other's only serious relationship and we've only been with each other sexually. We were virgins when we got married. We did everything right so it seemed. My husband has been struggling with having thoughts about sleeping with other women and having a more free lifestyle. He is honest and upfront with me and doesn't understand why he feels this way when we have a very active and healthy sexual life and we have a good friendship too. He started feeling this way when we started our family and he did look at things and masturbate for a while, but he stopped doing that because he knew it was wrong. I've stayed fit and attractive. He says he still wants me and he feels about 80% satisfied with our life, but doesn't know why he feels like the other 20% of unhappiness and of wanting another woman, no one in particular actually, just what it would be like.
He says he's wrestled with this since we've had kids. Our oldest is almost five. I asked him if he would be happier if we had a divorce and he says that would take away 80% of his happiness and he loves us and our kids. He says it's not me. He just feels like his young years are being spent like a 40 year old with all the responsibilities he has. He wonders if man was really made to have only one wife when the urge is so strong and since the bible shows multiple cases of men with many wives. He doesn't want to hurt me or lose me, but he just doesn't know how to deal with this unhappiness and doesn't understand why. He feels this is a cruel part of life that there is just no answer for. I'm obviously hurt by this since I can't make him fulfilled sexually. We spice it up and do everything you can imagine. I've never turned him down and enjoy sex with him very much and he says he does too but its still not satisfying him.
He says the chase of another girl and being sexual with them is very hard for him to stop thinking about and being satisfied with what he has basically. He wonders if we actually did it right or should he have sowed his wild oats so to speak before we got married. He says most things in life make sense to him, but this just doesn't. Thanks for any advice."
So kudos first off on the honesty level.

Pam Allan: Well yeah, both of them are straight out open with each other about where they are. I'd hate to think about what this dynamic would be if they weren't at least talking about it.

Corey Allan: Right, because one of the biggest things we can do in married life if we want to really increase the intimate level and the depth therein is be honest, keep things in the open, because it's the stuff that's hidden that will impact each other that wreaks the most havoc and destruction in a marriage. Because there's some data that happens in marriage that you don't need to know about, I don't need to know about, right? What goes on in your work, some of the nuances of those... I don't know. That's all stuff that's got to be downloaded every day. But these things that do directly impact each other and you can be honest about those and wrestle with those in the open, that's the same kind of thought process as dealing with fantasies out in the open, which is almost what this is.

Pam Allan: Yeah.

Corey Allan: That's what he's talking about is I'm just really wrestling and struggling with this. So here's the two things that jump out to me, okay?

Pam Allan: Yeah.

Corey Allan: One is his side of the equation, which I don't want to spend as much time on because he's not the one that wrote this in.

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: So I'm hoping he's a listener and if he's not, ma'am, get him to listen to this segment.

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: Maybe that helps.

Pam Allan: Yeah, absolutely.

Corey Allan: And then the second is I want to talk to her.

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: Okay, so I'm curious how this is tied in when he says this began when they started their family.

Pam Allan: Yeah, when they had kids.

Corey Allan: I want to know what it was like prior. Was that urge there? The thought might have been there because I think that's kind of a common, "Huh, I wonder," according to some of the research that I've come across on what's the most common fantasies, that's one of them. But it sounds to me like this really ramped up once life and adulting took over and now all the sudden the meaning he has attached to where he is in life is not freedom. This is his path to freedom.

Pam Allan: Right, or to the excitement. When you get into some of the day to day, all the routine that sets in even more when you've got kids, I mean her comment was he's excited about the chase of another woman. Right, that chase and that excitement that's there.

Corey Allan: Right, the novelty.

Pam Allan: The novelty outside of adulting.

Corey Allan: Yeah.

Pam Allan: The day to day doldrums.

Corey Allan: Yeah, because I think that's the way you just talked about the day to day doldrums, I don't have any research to back this up, this is my own state that I've kind of created of I think when we get further into life, particularly when we have a family, its roughly 90% of my existence is involved in just surviving and living.

Pam Allan: Routine, routine. Yeah.

Corey Allan: And taking care of responsibilities, and setting up things that are in the future, and taking care of a home, and a job, and carpool, and meals, and then 10% is why I do the 90. It's the times I get to get away, the vacations, the romantic experiences, the things that are the deeper... take us out of ourselves things.

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: Some of the times you have to recognize and realize that when I'm dealing with life, I'm going to have to do those things whether I'm in a relationship or not, whether I have children or not. I have to figure out how to survive. So how do I look at it of the things that I have to do that are part of adulting, what am I learning in those things? What's the meaning of those things? Maybe I can find what I feel like is missing within it, hence the freedom or the re framing of what I've got. Because he at least recognizes that of, "I realize the risk involved in this if I was to actually follow through with this."

Pam Allan: Yeah, I don't want to lose my 80%.

Corey Allan: I don't want to lose that.

Pam Allan: Of satisfaction or happiness, which well, I'll take out my comment. Go ahead.

Corey Allan: Okay. The other thing to ask him is what is it about the novelty, the curiosity, the identity that he has attached to this idea of, "What if I would have sewn by wild oats? What if I would have had all these experiences?"

Pam Allan: Yeah, what if you had. It'd be interesting to find out what he thinks he would gain from that.

Corey Allan: Right, because we all have this desire within us of, "What if I X?"

Pam Allan: Yeah.

Corey Allan: Not realizing there could be some tremendous pitfalls from X too.

Pam Allan: Isn't that interesting, you know you commented earlier when we look back at experiences we had in the past, sometimes we glorify them, we only remember the good, maybe we only remember the bad. But I think sometimes when we fantasize about, in this scenario, "What if I had sewed my oats?"

Corey Allan: Right.

Pam Allan: You can think that that would have been so fabulous. Maybe I would have had all these experiences, these wild hot passionate encounters, whatever that would have been, and then you're omitting other things that come along with that. The crazy girl that wouldn't leave me alone and wouldn't stop stalking me.

Corey Allan: What comes to my mind right off the way you just framed that is I've had three men in the course of my professional career that we have talked at length about the fact that they did that and all of them were so devastating in their own mind to their psyche, to their identity, they did not like viewing themselves like that. That's the other side of it. And then once they got married and were into a committed relationship with a woman that they couldn't get enough of in their marriage and was really engaged, and that's where they found hope and peace.

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: Its the meanings we attach to things that make all the difference.

Pam Allan: Yeah, and like so many things in life, we don't realize the lesson until we live through it. I can't have someone just tell me that, quite often I live through it.

Corey Allan: So let's shift gears back to her.

Pam Allan: Okay.

Corey Allan: Because the thing that jumps out to me is her last paragraph of her email that obviously this hurts. Yes, this is going to hurt to hear a husband that's wrestling with these kind of things out in the open.

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: Because it's hard to not identify with what is this about me. Her statement of, "Since I can't make him fulfilled sexually," I want to jump on that statement.

Pam Allan: Okay, what would you say to that?

Corey Allan: Well, just to be blunt, yeah you can't.

Pam Allan: You can't.

Corey Allan: Okay. Because I do believe there are a lot of times when a person is not going to fulfill another person sexually, and its not about the person.

Pam Allan: Well, and it's not just sexually, its anything in life. I can't make my spouse happy, I can't fulfill them, they have to stand on their own two feet. They've got to figure out what they want. They've got to figure out what they want sexually. And it sounds like he's thinking he's figured out sexually and he's bringing that to her right now, so this is just part of that journey of potentially him figuring out what it is that will fill that bucket.

Corey Allan: Yeah, we've had way too many times I think with the way marriage is unfolded to where a spouse thinks they're responsible for more than they really are when it comes to their partner.

Pam Allan: Yeah.

Corey Allan: Right.

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: We look to our spouse for more than they need to be.

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: Or could possibly be, fulfill for our life. So it's really starting to challenge these meanings that we've attached to these things. It's starting to look at, "Okay, I can't fulfill him sexually because he has these fantasies, he has these thoughts." Well yes, but you do have a satisfying sex life for you. He says he enjoys it too. Okay. So its easy to take it as, "Well but he still has," as that's a huge problem. Yes it is, but its not huge, its just a problem. Because you're talking about bringing both of us into the marriage and creating room for that aspect of us. What we choose to do obviously has impact, but the fact that we can't wrestle with these things, that's intimacy. That's the episodes we did 501-504 on all the extended content was creating that dynamic and dilemma of understanding and creating room to honor all of each other.
So to her, I would say, "Okay, I can't fulfill him sexually." That's the way she's framed it. So how do you start to frame it as, "Okay what if that's not my job? What if what he does get with me though, he's not going to find with anybody else and it probably is more than he can even handle in the first place because look at who I am and look at how outgoing I am and I'm willing to try things?" Good on you ma'am. That is awesome to just bring that to bear and realize it doesn't take out the, "Ooh that hurts," because there's still impact, but instead its looking at what's the impact you're bringing to him to basically be able to look him in the eye and say, "Honey, I understand you're wrestling with this. I understand there could be a struggle with this. You need to fully understand what you stand to lose if you act on this, if there's something that goes on with it."
Because that's bringing more of you to the equation that's then creating a self-respecting move. It's creating something of value, and it's also putting the pressure and the struggle where it really needs to go. This is not her job to solve for him.

Pam Allan: That's right.

Corey Allan: This is his job to wrestle with what's the meaning attached to all of the things that have made it to where parenthood has made me feel trapped and my path to freedom could be whatever.

Pam Allan: Right.

Corey Allan: Well, okay. But there's also paths to freedom that aren't destructive that come along with it, that actually can be enlightening and inviting to those you're doing life with and want to do life with. That's where you want to go. Its fun to every so often offer up the full show to everybody isn't it?

Pam Allan: It is.

Corey Allan: To just take the time and unpack everything and go deep on some of the questions because the SMR nation, they rock in how they bring the questions.

Pam Allan: Yeah, yeah. Every topic, lets talk, because certainly you're not alone in whatever it is you're bringing up.

Corey Allan: No. And we want more. We want more of your questions. So let us know, 214-702-9565, feedback@sexymarriageradio.com, or jump in the conversation at my.smrnation.com, and we can even have the dialogue there too, as well as what comes on the shows each and every Wednesday morning when they roll out.
Well, this has been Sexy Marriage Radio. Personal invitation from Pam and I, we'd love to shake your hand, or give you a fist bump, at the SMR Nation's get away coming up in June, and we can't wait to see you there.

Pam Allan: Yeah.

Corey Allan: Wherever you are, whatever you've been doing, thanks for taking some time out of your week to spend it with us. We'll see you next time.

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